Improv and Moments of Mastery with Nicole Eull 

Mike: Nicole Eull is a leadership expert, psychologist, and certified improv facilitator with only over 20 years in healthcare, including serving as director of wellbeing for one of the largest healthcare systems in the country. She’s made it her mission to help workplaces move from reactive patterns to proactive human-centered leadership.

Nicole brings a rare mix of science, storytelling, and energy to every engagement. In a world increasingly dominated by AI, you can ensure you’re building a culture that supports creativity and human-driven innovation. Her sessions are memorable, practical, and built to shift how people show up and lead.

Nicole, welcome to the show.

Nicole: Thank you. Glad to be here

Mike: Nicole, from all of your great experience, what do you believe is the most important characteristic of a great leadership team?

Nicole: I think a great leadership team, first and foremost, should have a collaborative spirit. And so what I mean by that is my two, north stars are always support and autonomy for leaders, so that leaders always are conveying that they feel, that they value what the team has to, offer and that they have their back.

But the autonomy piece, I think, is so important and gets, forgotten a lot, is that aspect of being willing to hear what other people have to say and accept input from others. What I see in a lot of leadership teams is they think their job is to fix everyone’s problems. And so I always, when I train leaders, say, “I wanna help you move from being the complaint department to the launching pad.”

So having that collaborative spirit, helping launch innovation by getting input from the actual team, I think is a great leadership skill

Mike: Well, I have a feeling we’re gonna spend most of our time digging into both of those things. Definitely wanna talk about collaborative spirit. We’re gonna dive into improv, which I assume is part of that. and I definitely wanna dig more into support and autonomy. 

Before I do, I’ve always been fascinated with improv.

I took a stand-up comedy class many years ago, and I was on stage at the Comedy Cellar in the Village doing stand-up, and that was … Like, let’s put it this way, I did okay, but I wasn’t quitting my day job.

Nicole: Okay. Okay.

Mike: but it was … and as much as I’d been on stage, that was so nerve-wracking. Like, and improv, it just

One of these days I’m gonna take a class. I never have, so I’m fascinated with it, so I wanna talk a little bit more or maybe a lot more about improv. You’re a, psychologist, a healthcare leader, and you’re also a certified improv facilitator. What made you kind of reach for improv as part of your mix of expertise?

Nicole: Yeah, so I, I love a good tool, and I, am a certified yoga instructor. I’m trained in hypnosis. I’ve learned mindfulness exercises, So I’m always looking for tools that resonate with my patients and now my business clients. And I was listening to NPR one day, and I heard a story of a woman who had started an improv training program to teach people how to teach improv to medical professionals.

I come from a background of healthcare. I’ve been a health psychologist for over 20 years, and so up until a few years ago, I was in hospital settings almost exclusively. Well, she thought that this was important because doctors are so, often wrapped up in, in getting all the documentation ready, filling out all the forms, that it’s really hard sometimes to take a pause and be in the moment, right?

So she started this training program at Northwestern Medical School. I heard about the training program. I pulled over immediately while I was listening to the radio, wrote down all the information, and did the training. That was about eight years ago, and what I’ve learned is that was that useful for my physicians that I train and other healthcare professionals?

A hundred percent. But it was also really useful for the administrators, the leaders, and all the other people in the healthcare system. And as I was doing these workshops, I’ve been training people in, stress management, communication skills, emotional intelligence for over 20 years. And when I started to use improv, so many people would say, “Hey, my spouse has a business, and I think they would benefit from this.”

Or, “My, my sister works in this company, and they’re financial planners, and boy, could they use you.” So I think what appeals about it for me is that I never really know what to expect, so I’m improvising as well. I love that it’s not me just presenting something over and over again, the same presentation.

but also I think it’s powerful because I don’t have to tell people why or how– why I think it’s important or how to communicate. I can show them. So we do an improv game or an activity. We introduce a concept. I ask them to tell me the truth about it. Let me… I say things like, “What was that like for you?”

And I feel as though it’s a successful debrief if they can come up with all the takeaways, if they can come up with the truths. So, we have them kind of offer what they experienced. We ask why it felt that way, what strategies worked, what didn’t, and then by the end of that game or experience, they’ve come away with a real concrete tool that they can use immediately.

Mike: So for those not familiar with improv, I wanna dig into a little bit and I guess start with first, I wanna understand some of the improv concepts or rules of improv that, that tend to add the most value, to, to leaders. But if we just take it from the standpoint of, why should a leader care, leader care about improv?

Like you see improv, we’ve probably all seen it on TV or you go watch and it’s fun to watch and, be amazed at how those people think on their feet. But why does a leader, why does a member of a leadership team care about improv? How does it relate?

Nicole: Yeah. I think because we all need to be present in the moment that is presented to us rather than the moment we want it or the moment we would like to have, or the moment we expect it to happen. And so I think a lot of times we come in with expectations all around, and then we end up guiding, the discussion that we wanted to have rather than the discussion that’s actually happening.

So number one, we need to be present in the moment. Number two, improv is a very effective tool for keeping people engaged. So, when I do these leadership trainings and these team trainings, people are engaged, they’re interacting with each other, they’re breaking down barriers and getting to know each other.

And I think it’s important also because, again, as I said, you’re really feeling what something might… what strategies might work and what strategies might not work. So let me give you an example. When, one of the biggest rules of improv is “yes, and,” right? we… or this tool of improv is “yes, and.” And so much so that I give away these little stickers that say “yes, and” at my trainings, and,just as this sort of rallying cry.

And what does “yes, and” mean? “Yes, and” means we say yes, and then we add something to it, rather than something like, “Yes, but,” which is, “Yeah, but really not.” Right? So, I will introduce a game where we try out separate kinds of conversations: a “yes, and” conversation, a “yes, but” conversation, and then a “no” conversation.

And when we do these exercises, they’re one-minute conversations in pairs, and they’re about silly things like your favorite place to go on vacation or your favorite TV show. What I will hear again and again from people in these workshops is they’ll say, “I knew this was a fake conversation, and I still started to feel that emotional difference or that emotional anger or frustration when I had to say a ‘yes, but’ conversation or a ‘no’ conversation.”

So then that leads to this discussion of, well, where in our lives and our leadership are we using “yes, but” and “yes and no,” and when might we be able to say “yes, and” instead to let the conversation grow? The other thing I see in improv is that when the same exercise, when they talk and they debrief about the exercise, they’ll say things like, “Oh, I just felt like ‘yes, and’ helped the conversation grow and flourish.”

And while they’re saying that, their hands are moving upward and outward. And then when they start to say, “I didn’t like ‘yes, but,’ it seemed very limiting and controlling and manipulative or very unaffirming,” and they start smashing their hand down or making their hand in a final swoop. And it’s very interesting to see the difference in how people physically respond to what they felt from these different kinds of conversations.

So I think it’s super powerful

Mike: Yeah, I’m almost hearing in my head as you’re talking about it, like when I hear what the yes, and conversation probably sounds like is I can imagine people going, “Ooh, ooh, and also, and yeah, and, yeah, I like that too,” and then,

Nicole: Absolutely

Mike: the, just the energy in the room I imagine for that versus the yes, but conversation, I would imagine even in a minute-long conversation, the room may get really quiet really quickly, ’cause as soon as somebody says yes, but or no, it just shuts the conversation down, which is not what you wanna do when you’re a leader trying to brainstorm ideas or come up with new strategies.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. And you can see where that starts to lead to whether or not you’re setting the stage in your community or your work culture for growth, innovation, creativity, or for, “Yeah, no, we don’t really wanna hear that stuff. We’re not really open to new ideas here.”

Mike: when we talked before this, when we first met and talked about being on the show, one of the things you said I wrote down about yes, and I wanted to make sure we talked about it, which is, I think I asked you, what, well yes, and works, but what if you really don’t like the other person’s idea?

And now you’re saying yes, and. And you talked about the idea of yes ending the relationship, not just the idea, and I thought that was beautiful. Talk, talk more about that

Nicole: inevitably when I do these workshops, I’ve done hundreds of these, and there’s always someone in the room who thinks, “But what if the idea is stupid?” And sometimes the idea isn’t great, right? It might not be fully formed. But what you’re saying yes to is the relationship between the two of you. You don’t need to necessarily say yes 100% to the idea.

So we want to, make sure that when you… when someone comes to it with an idea, one of the things I’ll say in my training is that they may come with enthusiasm, energy, creativity, and if you say no right away or you say things like, “We already tried that,” or, “Oh, that won’t… that’s not realistic, it’ll cost way too much,” you’re squashing that person’s engagement and, interest in helping grow the company.

Whereas if you say, “Yes, and I’ve always appreciated your entrepreneurial spirit. I’d love to hear more,” or, “Yes, and, we have tried these things in the past. I’d love to hear what unique perspective you have,” right? That just feels different, doesn’t it? It feels different in the way that you’re valuing, if we come back to support and autonomy, how are you making the person feel valued and that you, value their contribution?

When you say yes, and you build on their idea, sometimes what happens is their frontline information, their possibly naive idea combines with your expertise, institutional knowledge, and wisdom and experience of the company and in general, and now you have something really great. oftentimes, if we can have those yes, and conversations, those two perspectives join, and that’s where the real magic happens.

Mike: When it comes to improv, “yes, and” is probably, I’ll call it the most popular principle of improv that I’ve heard. I’ve heard it over and over again. what is there another improv principle that you found maybe surprises leaders most or has the biggest impact that maybe leaders don’t expect?

Nicole: Yeah. Well, there’s quite a few, but the one– the rule of improv I love the most is we make each other look good. So the rule is if you’re on stage and someone does something a little left field, you say, “Yes, I can’t wait. That’s amazing. Of course, we’re circus clowns,” or whatever. But in workplaces, we make each other look good.

So we don’t throw each other under the bus. We don’t call people out publicly for failing. we set people up with the right training and co-equipment that they need to, to succeed. and the tool that goes with that is giving gifts. So the way we make each other look good is by giving gifts, and the gifts can be anything from praise, a public acknowledgment, giving them the floor, giving them a heads up before a meeting if you’re gonna call them out to say something difficult so that they’re prepared, giving them a promotion, giving them, continuing education credits, giving them introductions and mentors.

So you can see how this thing that started off as simple when you’re on stage, we lift each other up, there’s so many applications there. And so I really enjoy that role because I think it changes the mindset of instead of I have to point out always what everyone’s doing wrong so that they don’t do that again, you point out what people are doing right and make them look good, and that we lift each other up, or as HR people call it, managing up, right?

We– “I’m so excited to pass you on to our, our account manager. she is just meticulous in her detail, and she’s gonna… You’re gonna be blown away by your… the service you receive from her.” Well, now that’s making her look good. That’s managing her up. So I think it really shifts the mentality for leaders to start thinking about what gifts am I giving my people to actually make them look good?

Mike: you have a framework that’s called moments of mastery, and it’s about the simple moments being the vital ones. why are the simple moments the, or the small moments the most vital?

Nicole: So this framework, this idea came to me as this,sort of rooted in the concept of mindful communication that, that you can either react impulsively or respond intentionally, right? In every moment, and that every moment builds up to a level of mastery. And that’s true for lots of things, right?

Every time you pick up a guitar and take a few moments to strum a chord, you grow towards mastery. With leaders, there’s often this impulsive reaction, in the moment, and then later fixing what was, communicated. So in moments of mastery, we really talk about these these moments meaning that not just you should think in the moment about what you said, but what should you say?

It’s one thing to just say, “Hey, you really should be mindful when you talk. You should, you be careful in your tone.” But my trainings actually give people something to say instead, like, “Yes, and…” So you might know exactly where the conversation’s gonna go, and you’re kinda thinking the idea isn’t great, but in the moment, you become a master of that moment, and you say, “Yes, and I would love to hear more about where you came up with this idea.”

Right? Whatever that be, these little moments build up to a culture that’s psychologically safe and a culture where people start to feel that they can take more and more risks to share, number one, what they’re seeing on the front line, what’s going wrong, and what could be better

Mike: So let’s talk about a few more examples of these moments of mastery. One, as you said, is the yes, and. I imagine another one is giving the gift and lifting each other up. You can create moments there. What are some other examples of these small but vital moments to then help our listener with what they ought to say or how they ought to be thinking about it?

Nicole: Yeah. 

One of the big ones is the beginner mind. So we do an improv exercise in, my workshops where we, one person pretends to be from, the 1700s and the other is from the present day, and they have to, explain something from modern times to help this person from the past get up to speed, so to speak.

Well, I assign them on purpose things that are very hard to explain. Things like, Amazon. Amazon or Uber. What is Uber? so now you have to s- you see that you would have to explain not just the internet or just a car or just, electricity, you have to explain all of those. You have to explain smartphones, you have to explain all these different things.

And so they definitely struggle a bit. And when we debrief, we talk about what are the aspects of a good teacher? And you’ll find that as they are explaining this, it’s those people who used not… didn’t use jargon, those people who used anchor concepts that you would understand. So if you’re talking about Uber, it’s like a carriage that brings your food, right?

Or Amazon, imagine that you didn’t have to go to the general store every time you needed something that… Or you went to the general store and they were out. This is a place where you can order these things from your home, and they would just appear in your home. That’s not jargony, that’s not,complicated.

So think of how many times in every industry we spend a lot of time explaining things to our clients and to our teams in ways that are too advanced or use too much jargon or assume too much, right? And so if you’re not in a psychologically safe environment, most people will then be hesitant to admit that they don’t understand what you’re talking about.

So they nod their head and they say, “Okay, great. Thanks, boss.” And they go off with a very limited understanding of what you actually want. Whereas a leader who is mastering the moments can take that beginner mind and say, “Hold on, wait a minute. This is a seven…” You know, we call it a the game 1776. And so you say, “Well, this is a 1776 moment.

I need to use a beginner mind.” And when I teach this to people, they not only start to think about their onboarding, they start to look at their brochures, they start to look at their website and see, “Wait a minute, now does our website have the beginner mind, or do we just talk in a bunch of jargon that most of our clients wouldn’t understand?”

So this is just one example of the many that are great opportunities to, to really pause in the moment and say, “Hold on a second. I’m not speaking in a beginner mind. I’m not engaging with this person in a beginner mind. how can I pull back a second, take that moment of mastery, and engage in a better way?”

Mike: you mentioned psychological safety,

Nicole: Mhm.

Mike: I, and that’s such, that’s so important on a leadership team. I’ve seen leadership teams that have that and can be open and honest and vulnerable with each other and give and receive feedback without any fear of retribution or argue for or against ideas.

And then I’ve seen others that do a lot of nodding, because they’re not as comfortable saying what they really think. within, moments of mastery and maybe there’s some other improv principles, what else might leaders do to create more psychological safety within their team?

Nicole: Mm-hmm. I think that mostly just being open to hearing what people have to say. Taking that yes and spirit first, then rather than the yes, but or the no. And then when I… we have another game we do called Hey, Let’s, where we create a circle, and we have people, say something silly like, “Hey, let’s pat our heads.

Let’s stomp our feet.” And then the rule is everyone has to say, “Yes, let’s pat our heads or stomp our feet,” like you’ve been waiting all day for someone to suggest such an exciting opportunity, right? And afterwards, when everybody’s done doing this, first of all, it’s very entertaining to watch this. But, when you’re done, you say, “What was that like?”

And everyone looks around, and they say, “Everyone seems happy,” or they say, “It’s energizing,” or, “I feel invigorated,” or, “I feel connected to the people. I feel brave.” And the reason they feel those things is because people were creating a psychologically safe environment. They knew that no matter how crazy their idea was, that people would be up for at least trying it, right?

That they would meet it with a supportive, feeling. And so then when I put it back on leaders, and I say, “Listen, how would it feel if you knew that’s how people would treat your ideas?” Everyone kind of pauses and says, “That would be pretty great,” right? and so I think, okay, well then I push back on them.

Now that if you’re a leader, how can you create these environments for people? For you to treat other people and for the team to treat each other. So

Mike: Love that. 

Earlier you talked about support and autonomy, and I know those are two really important kind of north stars in, in the work you do. talk a little bit more. Again, you gave us a glimpse a little bit earlier, but let’s dive in again now. what does support look like?

What does autonomy look like? and why do both those things matter so much?

Nicole: Yeah. So, I, as I said, I’ve been in healthcare for many years. I got very concerned about the mental health and wellbeing of my coworkers as much as I was about my patients. So I started doing a lot of work in stress management, and I started giving presentations for people on how to manage stress and self-care and resilience.

As I got deeper into workplace wellbeing and ultimately became a director of wellbeing for a large healthcare system, I learned through the data, conferences, research, that support and autonomy are really the things that move the needle. So the other things like step challenges, having yoga classes at work, healthy potlucks I often refer to those as random acts of wellness.

They’re not bad, but they’re not a culture, right? If you are coming to healthy potlucks all the time or you’re doing step challenges or you have an app where it monitors your movement, that still doesn’t change if the culture’s toxic at work, right? So there needs to be some intervention on the cultural level of how people are treated, what are those rules of engagement.

And the data tells us that support and autonomy are it, and it keeps telling us that. Which means that you wanna make sure that when you are working with people, whether that be team member to team member, leader to employee, whatever the relationship is, if you make people feel like, “I have your back and I value your contribution.”

So that means, hey, when things come up, I don’t just throw you under the bus. I say… I was in a,a conversation a few weeks ago where someone said they, they didn’t really love their old job, and one of the things they didn’t love about was that they never were given credit for their work, and that the word the team didn’t come up unless something had gone wrong.

So they were immediately taking all the credit, but then throwing the team under the bus when something would go wrong, right? That is not ideal. I think we can all agree on that. So, a leader who values support is gonna be the one who, praises in public and corrects in private. They’re going to, make sure that they’re, jumping in when people get overwhelmed or protecting you when you have a deadline, right?

And then on the, the I value you part, they’re gonna be telling you that they appreciate you. They’re gonna be praising you to other people in publicly– or in public, in, in meetings. And then the autonomy is so important because this is I have a say in my work. There’s actually was a silly, kind of a interesting study done, in healthcare where they allowed doctors, as they were building out a new clinic, just to have control of the lighting and the temperature of their exam rooms.

And they found that just with that little change, they rated their work-life quality drastically increased because they could control the temperature and the lighting in their exam room. That sounds silly, except if you’re someone like me who’s always cold, it sounds pretty great, right? So what are other ways that you can give people a choice in their workplace?

can you… If you’re you need a new software, instead of saying, “We need a new software. We need a new CRM” We went out and picked it out. You ask the salespeople, “What kind of CRM are you looking for? What’s missing in the current CRM?” Um, and you let them be a part of the choice, that all the stakeholders are involved, right?

So, there’s so many different applications to this, but I think that just starting to think about are you solving problems for people alone in your office as a leader, or are you solving them, as I said at the beginning of this episode, collaboratively? Are you going to the front lines? Are you going to the team and saying, “We have a problem.

How are we going to resolve it?” Or, “We have a new goal. How are we going to achieve it?”

Mike: Are there times where support and autonomy conflict with each other? Like, it would seem like there’s an important balance. Like you mentioned within support that, you’re jumping in and helping. Well, jumping in too much could lead to a lack of autonomy. Like, let me figure this out.

Stop jumping in every time I have a problem. So talk a little bit about that balance and maybe specifically where do a lot of leaders get that balance wrong?

Nicole: Mm-hmm. I think it’s the difference between micromanaging or supporting, right? So, if you are doing work for people because you think they can’t do it or you jump in and do it for them, now you’re communicating, “I don’t really value you,” right? “I don’t value your abilities.” If you jump in and say, “How can I be of help?

I know this is a stressful time for you. What do you need from me to help get this done? How can I guide you? What questions do you have?” That seems a little different to me than that micromanaging of, “I’m taking over, and I’m pushing you to the side.” I think if you feel as a leader like you have pushed the person to the side and you have taken the center stage, that’s not quite right.

to use the improv metaphors here, if you are joining with the person and feeling that sense of roll up your sleeves and let that person guide you in how you can be of help, or as some people would call that the servant leader,that’s the more, effective balance between the two

Mike: The other thing we talked about when we first met, we were talking about,about kind of preparing for this. You talked about the idea of cultural fit versus cultural contribution,

Nicole: Ja

Mike: and I think that’s really i- important ’cause so often we talk about culture fit, and that can go a little too far if fit means everybody acts exactly the same way, and, so talk a little bit about the difference between those two and why it’s important.

Nicole: Yeah. Can you think of an example of any time that you’ve heard that? Can you think of an example where you’ve heard, “They’re such a good cultural fit”? Do you have an experience of that?

Mike: It, hear- hearing that in a positive way, a negative way, or

either 

Nicole: either way, just as a word, just as a phrase, have you heard

Mike: I hear it mostly in a positive way, and a cultural fit means, they seem to fit in well with the team. They’re living our core values. they’re making the people around them better and working real well.

Like it’s, it, cultural fit is normally a very positive thing

Nicole: Yeah, so I think people use this as a positive thing. So when I was working in healthcare, one of the things that I did for many years was I helped train medical residents. So in family medicine, they– that’s a three-year residency program. So if a doctor finishes medical school, they go to, three years of training, called the residency program, and then they graduate, and they become attending physicians, and they can practice on their own.

And so every year, we’re bringing on new residents, and they are having to interview with us, and we let the faculty but also the residents be a part of the selection process. And so a lot of times, a resident would come in, and they’d say, “I think they would be a great cultural fit.” And I just started to get a little weary of that comment because what I think it sometimes mean is they’re not gonna challenge us.

We’re not gonna grow or change for having brought this person in. We’re just gonna be in the echo chamber of people who think everything we’re doing is great. Now, that feels good. It’s certainly more relaxing. It’s less stressful. But are you innovating when that happens? And so I gave this, workshop recently in a meeting and, with a group of leaders, high leaders, CEOs, pretty high up in their companies.

And at the break, one of the gentlemen said, “You told us about this cultural fit and cultural contribution, and I had been struggling to decide and was interviewing for a position in my company, and I had really good candidates.” What a blessing, right? To have multiple great candidates. “And when you said that, I suddenly realized I know who we need to hire because all of them will be a good fit, but one of them will challenge us to do better.”

Right? So this cultural contribution is taking an honest look at your company, honest look at your work, your team, and saying, “Who do we have a lot of? What do we have a lot of? What are our strengths? And then what are our weaknesses, and what are we missing? And what– how do we need to hire, and who do we need to hire to help us get there?

Do we need a person who is, more of a rule follower? Do we need a person who’s more of a risk-taker ’cause we don’t have that right now?” and then looking for that person and that candidate because they’re going to contribute something that you need rather than just making everybody feel cozy and comfortable.

Mike: Yeah, I love that. ‘Cause yeah, I mean, you wind up, I did, I, I used to be a certified DiSC practitioner, and if you’re familiar with DiSC, I’d work with teams where it was a bunch of high D folks on the team. And if you don’t know what DiSC is, high D is basically those are the folks that want, let’s just get it done quick.

don’t bother me with all the facts. We’re gonna make decisions, we’re gonna implement it, we’re gonna move on.” A- and then you’ve got, like, the high Cs in the group that wanna think through, “No, I want the 107 facts to figure this out, and we gotta make sure we’re doing it right.” and I happen to be one of, one of the high Ds.

but if you’re in a room and they’re all high Ds, because it’s like, “Hey, we’re all alike, we’re… I’m gonna hire this person ’cause they’re just like we are.” A bunch of high Ds in a room are gonna make a whole lot of mistakes and break a lot of stuff on the way to getting some stuff done.

Sometimes you need those folks in the room that are more thinking things through. Now, if you have too many folks that are thinking through all the details, you may never get a lot of work done. So to your point, you need that varied, that, that varied team, which is great. I know,diversity, may not be the hot term it was, a few years ago, but I still think it’s pretty damn important, on our teams.

and that I think is what you’re getting at with contribution.

Nicole: Yeah, and I think that’s a benefit of diversity in many ways is all different… Any kind of diversity brings you a different perspective, right? So let’s say you’ve been a male-dominated field and you bring a woman in, you might suddenly think, “Wait, it’s interesting that we do this way.

I see it a different way.” And then that might be a valuable contribution, right? So I think, there are many ways to look at diversity, but thinking about your culture and what’s missing from your culture is really valuable. I… there’s this, this book, oh gosh, I can’t even remember the name.

I wanna say it’s called, like, The Generalist or something like this, and it was a book about looking at people who highly specialize in one thing

Mike: Oh, I read that book. I read that book and I’m trying to think of the name now

Nicole: Between the both us, between us if we could think of it. We’ll put it in the show notes. Um, somebody’ll look it up. But anyway,the book basically showed tons and tons of evidence that people who highly specialize in one thing aren’t as innovative and creative as people who are generalists, and that they have a little bit of knowledges from multiple places.

I think you want the generalist, and then when you’re ready to, like, build the rocket part, you probably want the specialist. Or, like, you want the generalist as your main doctor keeping an eye on everything that’s happening with you in general and how those might affect each other, but then when you have a highly specialized rare form of cancer, you’re gonna want the specialist.

So I think there’s so many ways to think about this that, that you need all of that, and it’s really hard to know what you’re missing. And also for in your example, Mike, you’re talking about this hustle culture of all these Ds who are like, “We’re gonna do it. We’re gonna jump in.” And it reminds me of, like, Silicon Valley or something where they’re like, taking shots and getting investment and having all this fun, and it’s very invigorating and fun environment, but most of those companies burned out very quickly.

And so you still need that person who’s gonna, maybe, dot some I’s and cross some T’s, right? To bring it down to earth. And I’ve seen so many different relationships where that, if you can achieve that diversity in, in different kinds of people on your team, that’s where real magic happens.

Mike: And it would seem to me when I think about Nicole, as you say that, is when even, during the interview and evaluation process of a prospective brand new team member is very often, and I coach my clients, how should they be thinking about culture fit, and how do you know whether someone’s living your core values?

and this doesn’t negate the importance of any of that, I don’t think. But what it does is it challenges me to ask my clients, “Well, great, it seems like they’re a fit, but where would they actually contribute to the culture? Where are they gonna help us think differently or in new ways?” That adds a whole other level to it that I know as a coach I haven’t really been challenging my clients to do.

So,

Nicole: Yeah. What are they bringing to the table? Yeah. Are they just gonna be like the person you let, you lost or let go? What are they bringing that’s unique and different?

Mike: Love that. 

So, so Nicole, talk a little bit more about,inherent in this conversation people are getting a sense of the work you do with clients, but I wanna ask you more, more, more straight on to that question is, who do you typically work with? What ty- types of people?

What types of companies? and what does your work look like?

Nicole: Yeah. So, as I said, I have a, 20-plus year, career in healthcare. So, I started off working a lot with healthcare institutions, so healthcare leadership and providers. That very quickly word kind of spread that, let’s be honest, there’s a lot of boring presentations and workshops out there.

So the first word to spread was, “Hey, that’s kind of fun. That’s a little more interesting than the standard presentation. Let’s do this improv thing.” I do other presentations. I have, workshops on emotional intelligence, and I do keynotes on staying connected to purpose and building a well culture and all these things.

But I think the improv has really caught on because it’s dynamic, it’s engaging, and it really drives home the point. So, I love speaking. I love educating and facilitating these kinds of keynotes and workshops. So, I am a keynote speaker. I do conferences, annual meetings, trade organizations and professional organization gatherings where I do the, this work.

Oftentimes, I’ll do a main stage for the larger group, and then do a breakout for people who wanna dive deeper in the actual,the games and the skills. And then I have several clients who then hire me to do, group leadership training, a little deeper. So, I’ll have groups where I sign a year contract, and then I’m doing monthly or quarterly group cohort trainings where I’ll sit with leaders in the organization and say, “Here’s a topic we’re gonna discuss, and then let’s dive deeper in, into the how, into those moments of mastery.”

and then, I also have some video series that I give to people when they work with me, so that let’s say you do a keynote, you spend, good amount of money on these keynotes, and then a lot of people get inspired for a few days, and it gets lost. So, I have a video series for several of my keynotes and workshops where then people get a video once a week or once a month for a duration afterwards so that they stay connected to the information.

And then some of my clients, when they wanna go really deep into the work, they hire me as a more of that consultant role to look at and survey their culture and see where there might be opportunities in the culture to foster creativity and innovation through the way people treat each other, and looking at ways that we might be subtly shutting down innovation and creativity by making things not psychologically safe, by, yes, budding conversations.

So, making those rules explicit and looking for opportunities to improve the culture in that way.

Mike: And if people wanna find out more about all of this, where should they go?

Nicole: docnicole.com is my website, so D-O-C N-I-C-O-L-E.com. And there you can learn about my keynotes, my workshops, and, my availability and, some of the additional work I do. There’s some videos there where you can watch, and see what my work looks like and hear what other people thought about those presentations.

so that’s a great place to start. I’m also on LinkedIn, and that’s where I post about what workshops I’m doing and some of my, thoughts on leadership from day to day. So if you need a leadership update, a little boost every day, you can tune in on LinkedIn as well.

Mike: Well, I always say if you want a great company, you need a great leadership team. Nicole, thanks for everything today to help us get there from, improv moments of mastery, support versus autonomy, cultural fit versus, versus, versus cultural contribution. I know you’ve at least inspired me.

You know, I wrote down as we’re talking, I need to go get improv training somewhere. I mean,

Nicole: do it. Yeah.

Mike: like it would be fun as well. But, so you’ve certainly inspired me. I’m sure you’ve inspired others. So again, thanks so much for being on the show today

Nicole: Thank you. It was really fun. Thank you 

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