Preventing HR Crisis With Behavioral Analytics with Karine Shahar

Karine: [00:00:00]

Mike: Karine Shahar is the founder of Strategic Global Talent, an HR consulting firm helping leaders solve their most pressing people challenges and prevent the next ones. With over 20 years of experience across 36 countries, including a tenure as global HR director at Apple’s dedicated agency, TBWA Media Arts Lab, I’ll get that right, and clients including Amazon Ring, Blumhouse Productions, and GOAT, G-O-A-T.

Karine specializes in behavioral analytics, fractional HR leadership, and team dynamics. She uses predictive index to help organizations build stronger teams, develop better leaders, and create cultures where people truly thrive. Karin, welcome to the show

Karine: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it

Mike: And thank you again for using Predictive Index on me and letting me know that maybe I’m not as crazy as I thought I was

Karine: No, [00:01:00] you’re amazing. It was a lot of fun

Mike: Kareem, from all of your experience, what do you believe is the one most important characteristic of a great leadership team?

Karine: I think integrity actually is really important. And, you know, through integrity comes a lot of things: honesty, transparency, communication, doing what’s right not only for the business, but also for the team. So I would say integrity for sure

Mike: Love it. Love it. Makes sense.

tagline, I believe is we fix your HR crisis and prevent the next one. After all of your years in HR, including time as a, you know, chief HR officer, what convinced you that most HR crisis, crises are actually preventable?

Karine: Oh, God. I mean, I think, I really believe in, like, a white glove service as HR, right? So I’m not just a box checker. It’s really a strategic business partner, and I think when you’re along for the ride at any company and you’re really involved in the full [00:02:00] life experience of an employee, you can avoid a lot of crisis.

I, I came up with that tagline though because with my new consultancy, well, a few years ago, I always get calls after or during a crisis. so that’s always the instigator for why people decide that they need HR. and you know, I come in, clean everything up, you know, address whatever issues happen, and then afterwards we tend to prevent anything that could potentially happen.

Mike: I wanna dive into the behavioral analytics side of things, which is such an important focus for you. But,but before I do, I wanna go bigger picture and get your thoughts on something. So, the term human resources has always been interesting to me. I actually really dislike human resour- like, to, to me, when I think HR, the tendency is, and my world is mostly kind of mid-size companies that are 5 or 10 million up to maybe a few hundred million.

and to [00:03:00] me, HR, you know, the whole idea of thinking of humans as a resource kinda bugs me a little bit. but HR tends to start out being very tactical, right? What does your HR person do? Well, it’s, they do benefits and employee handbooks and all that kinda stuff. and the strategic piece, what I think is the more strategic piece of developing people, you know, tends to go by the wayside.

Love your thoughts and, you know, from a, maybe from a mid-market company point of view, you know, is there some magic time where HR goes from being really tactical to more strategic? or should that be happening from day one?

Karine: I mean, for me, I think it should be happening from day one. I think you can have, like, two work streams simultaneously. One that’s very tactical, you know, setting up your HRIS system, payroll, employee handbook. All those things are pretty, you know, standard, and you have to do it. And then your other work stream is really much more strategic.

What are the goals for the business? What’s the one, [00:04:00] three, five-year plan for the business? And so then you’re kind of… While you’re building the foundation, you’re also creating a ton of nuance so that you’re making sure you’re thinking of all the different points of the life cycle. So it might be that onboarding is a really intense period, and we’re making sure that you’re learning everything you need to know about the company, you’re meeting all the players, you’re understanding behavior analytics.

and then there might be a good time to be implementing training so that you’re making sure your leadership is always following your values and your, and the culture that you’re trying to build. Or even for employees, you can do an entire base… You know, you can create a skill set matrix, and then make sure that everyone is growing as the company is growing as well, so that no one’s really left behind.

But yeah, I think two work streams simultaneously is definitely the way to go. One should not negate the other. But a lot of companies… Sorry. A lot of companies, what they find is they bring in these junior HR people, which is great, they’re… You know, they fit the mold. But the second they are asked to do anything strategic, they just don’t have the experience.

And so [00:05:00] sometimes HR will then lose credibility because they don’t have someone experienced in the role, right?

Mike: Yeah. A- and you just went where my head went is very often in the beginning stages, there is a, you know, an m- maybe an HR manager at best, and they are … And when I say HR manager, the picture that comes in my head is this very tactical, they’re very good at the benefits and the payroll and HRIS and all that stuff.

And then at some point, the CEO and the leadership team say, “We’ve gotta get more strategic,” and they expect that same person is gonna be able to do that, and very often that’s not the case

Karine: No. Which is why I end up coming into a lot of companies as fractional CHRO, because they need that element. And it’s not a full-time need because depending on the size of the company, it’s just not required. You know, I can be mentoring the mid-level HR manager, working with them, supporting them, and letting them, you know, really thrive.

But then I can get brought in on more senior level topics. So I’m tracking the day-to-day, but also [00:06:00] really working with the leadership team mainly.

Mike: So let’s dive into the behavioral ana- analytics piece. It’s a big part of what you do, and I was a, you know, you gave me the predictive index and that was super insightful. but let’s, for those that don’t know, d- define when we say behavioral analytics, I could say that.

When we say that, what does that mean?

Karine: it’s really understanding the drivers of people, right? I think a lot of assumptions are made. as leaders, we’ll make assumptions like, “Oh, well, why wouldn’t they have done that?” Or, “I would do this.” And a lot of people assume that everyone is like them, and that they’re gonna think like them and function like them.

So, you know, when I was working for Media Arts Lab, we were scaling at such a fast pace. I had a lot of new leaders. and so I went on the hunt for some sort of a behavioral tool, and it was a fascinating experience because ob- obviously, we were taking a million tests to see which one we liked the best.

And, you know, we could… I could start to even just… I started it with my team just to see, like, “Oh, [00:07:00] what are we all like?” And it was amazing to see, like, how different everyone was, what different skills they needed, and also how they needed to be managed. Everybody was different. Some people required more autonomy and ownership.

Some people wanted to be told exactly what to do along the way, and that was just, like, the beginning for me. I would say 15 years later, it’s like, it’s my secret weapon, frankly, you know, that I use for good. because I think people feel seen, and that’s something that, like, the new generation, younger generation, they really wanna feel seen in the workplace.

And so if their leader understands, like, the nuance of them, what drives them, what motivates them, what might frustrate them, what might close them off, like you’re just setting them up for success versus they’re having to take six months to figure it out, right? So it’s like a, it’s like a… It optimizes everything, you know?

Just makes everything much faster.

Mike: And there are a lot of tools out there, DiSC, Myers-Briggs, Predictive Index, you know. now you, you picked Predictive Index is one that you focus a lot of your effort on. what did you like about [00:08:00] that one as compared to the rest?

Karine: Well, you know, for me, there’s always this ex- you know, HR, I have this running joke that, like, nobody replies to HR or nobody prioritizes the work that we want to do. And so for me, the first thing was it has to be simple to take, right? I can’t ask executives to spend 45 minutes taking a test. So what I love about PI is it’s five to seven minutes.

You know, so no one can really tell me, “I don’t have time to take this,” because everyone has an extra five to seven minutes a day. and the other thing that I love about it is it really picks up on the nuance of each driver, and so we can see, like, what are more– what’s more driving within you, what’s not.

And the other thing that I love is that it analyzes how people are adapting to their environment. So no one really wants to be put in a box. Like, Myers-Briggs puts you in a box, and there’s kind of no nuance. It’s very black and white. And I think PI really picks up on the nuance because not only does it show me how someone is, how– what are the drivers that are the strongest, but it shows me how people are adapting to their environment, which is a really interesting insight because even employees [00:09:00] sometimes don’t realize how much they’re adapting.

And so then you can really have a more effective coaching session where you understand, like, “Hey, we want to get you back into your natural place. This is– This…” Or, “Maybe this isn’t the right job for you,” like, “you’re really unhappy.” Or, “Look at you, you’re thriving. You’re doing exactly what you’re supposed to do.”

But then when you pull the analytics of that, you know, across a company, not only do you understand the behavioral, the behaviors of your employees and the team dynamics, but you also understand how everyone’s adapting. So that it’s like an engagement survey without asking any questions, right? You know, you can see if people feel like things are too chaotic or if things are moving too quickly or there’s not enough meetings or too many meetings.

and so for me, just all of that was, it was just an obvious choi- And then it’s also easy to infuse in a company, right? Like, the reports are a couple pages. It’s simple language. ‘Cause I think for me, behavioral analytics are often used as like a off-site one-off, and for me, I use it through the entire employee experience, from recruitment, [00:10:00] onboarding, performance reviews, and even termination.

Yeah.

Mike: So I wanna talk about where you infuse it and we’ll start with the hiring process. But before we do,you mentioned Myers-Briggs, you know, could put people in a box and what you like, and one of the things you like about Predictive Index is you get to see how people are adapting.

And I was DISC certified many years ago, and the particular one that I had was like, you know, it did have kind of, th- this how you act normally, how you act un- under stress. And so, so there are ways for it to take you out of the box.

But the challenge that, that I always had, I’m interested in your take on this and how you get through it with your clients, is to me,the purpose of me using DISC with my leadership teams, as an example, was to get people to understand that point that you made, which is, hey, we can’t assume everybody’s like us.

We’re all different. So, you know, me as the CFO, I need to know the COO is a very [00:11:00] different, has a very different style, and therefore I should flex the way I communicate and try and influence all that. And all that’s wonderful, but I found what would happen almost as often is people used it as an excuse to be a jerk.

It was like, you know, no, I’m not being rude, I’m just, … You know I’m a high D. That’s how I am, so I’m not being rude, I’m just being high D.” And it’s like, no, you’re missing the whole point of why we’re doing this. So how do you get over that, people using it as an excuse for their behavior versus something to empower better behavior?

Karine: Yeah, that’s such a great question. for me, it’s about explaining to people why they behave the way… Well, not even why. Like, this is your driver. This is what, why you may be somebody’s low formality, and so they might offend somebody thinking, “But it’s not a big deal,” to them, but it is to the other.

So I think there’s, like, this interesting dynamic where when I’m dealing with a leadership team, I can show them the analytics of their team and say to them, “Okay, so [00:12:00] you might just be a little too direct for this group of people that you’ve hired. They’re a little conflict adverse. They need a little bit more positive reinforcement.”

And so then I can coach the leader on how to manage the team. and for me, when I even just first present the PI to people, I explain the PI and I also explain this way of thinking about it, which is these are different levers we can pull on. So for example, I’m highly impatient. Not all my clients as a consultant want me to move very quickly.

 most of them, I’m playing the long game along- alongside, and I adapt intentionally in service of my clients, right? But it feels really natural. I’m not uncomfortable by it. It doesn’t bring my morale down because I’m choosing to be more patient. And so I think that’s the principle that I really try to teach leaders is, like, just intentionally decide who you wanna show up for this group.

And sometimes that means taking a minute before the meeting, looking at your little PI cheat sheet and saying, “Oh, I’m going into this meeting. I’m going to drop down my control,” or, “I’m gonna drop down my formality [00:13:00] and give space to other people to tell me what they wanna do.” So it, it takes time, and for me, it’s accountability is really important, right?

So that’s why HR being a strategic business partner is crucial. Like, I’m meeting with my leadership on a monthly basis. We’re having conversations. “How did that meeting go? Did the PI help you?” so there’s, like, a lot of follow-up that I do. and but the truth is most people love it. They go through the experience, they enjoy it, and usually they embrace it.

And so it’s not too hard of a sell. But you know, depends on the leader.

Mike: And I do think it’s important to have someone like you coaching them through it because it’s too easy… We all, wh- whatever style we have, whether it’s Predictive Index or it’s DISC or it’s Myers-Briggs, but I’ll stick to Predictive Index and, a- and DISC. Whatever style we have, we have a tendency to think that’s the right one,

Karine: Of course

Mike: right?

Like, well, no, I’m very decisive and I decide quickly and I’m gonna tell you the way I feel, and that’s the right way to [00:14:00] do it, and you think too much about things. So it’s too easy to, I think, to go, as you said, like look at that before a meeting, how do I wanna go in? I think without some help from the outside, the tendency could be, I wanna go in who I am because this is the right way to be, and that…

So sometimes we need someone from the outside and say, outside saying, “Hold on. You know, you do react very quickly and you make quick decisions, and there are times that’s best. But you also know sometimes that needs- leaves dead bodies and mistakes in the

Karine: Yeah, exactly

Mike: you need the people who are, who think through things a little bit more.”

Like, I think sometimes we need people to whack us in the head and say, “No, your way is not always the right way.”

Karine: I think it’s also for me, like as a coach, it’s about being patient with people. You know? Change takes time. I tend to tell people like, “One thing a month. Let’s just focus on one thing a month. Let’s keep it simple.” and again, I’m not just a coach, I’m your HR person, and so there is this– or executive.

There is this element where I’m [00:15:00] very tactical. You know, my coaching sessions aren’t, You know, of course, we talk about philosophy and different practices that work really well, but I do very quickly go into a more granular tactical place with people because I want them to actually visualize how they’re gonna use it versus just staying like very high level about it.

I think because I’m so operational and because I understand the business deeply when I work with them, I get very granular. And so then that way on the next coaching call I can say, “How was that meeting? Did you use the technique? Did it make a difference? Did you get the outcomes you wanted?” So again, it’s that whole accountability loop.

I’m taking a lot of notes and tracking everything. But you know, I think if people start to see the reaction out of their team and that their team is like feeling seen and they’re thriving and they’re producing, it’s not… It becomes really simple, right? People immediately buy into what you’re teaching them ’cause it’s working, and maybe they get that dopamine hit or whatever, but they’re like, “Oh, th- I’m getting what I want.”

And so hopefully what happens is it feeds the cycle of [00:16:00] success. and I think it’s also about not putting people in a box. You know, like the leader has to be like, “Hey, I know that change is hard for you, but I’d really like to see you be more driving. Here are some techniques that you can do.” So again, it’s also that we can get really specific with the tools that we give people, which is really helpful.

Mike: So let’s start to talk about where you actually– where we could actually infuse these into our business. and I guess I’ll start at the beginning of the hiring process. So, so how would you… How do you use a tool like Predictive Index in the hiring process? When does it fit in, and how does it fit in?

Karine: I mean, it almost fits in right away because there, there’s different modules within PI. So you know, you can do… There’s recruitment, and then there’s the just employees, and then you’ve got, like, team dynamics. So you have all these different modules that are amazing. and so you start off with just building the perfect profile for the behavior that you want for the role.

And so what’s really great about it is you send out a link to all the [00:17:00] hiring managers or peers, people they’re gonna be working with regularly, and you have them fill out, like, this little survey, behavioral survey. It takes, like, five minutes. and then you get all the compilation of everybody’s opinions of what they want, and you build out a job reference basically.

And so as you’re interview- or not even interviewing, as you’re getting resumes in, you send the link out to people letting them know, “Hey, we use this tool. It’s helps us ramp you up when you first start with us.” And people take the assessment, and you can literally see all the… You know, it’ll give you five stars, four stars, three stars based on like, oh, this person really fits the behavior.

Now, I wanna be really clear about PI, and it’s one of the things I really like. PI is only 50%. Behavior is only 50% of who we are. The other 50% is values, how we grew up, our gender, where we grew up. You can see, like, different behavioral patterns based on, you know, different countries. Like it’s… And genders, and I mean, it’s fascinating when you really start to go deep.

And so you’re building the perfect behavior. You’re seeing the [00:18:00] experience and the behavior align, and so you really… You can meet everybody ’cause I think, like, everyone is coachable, but you can also just decide, “I’m gonna meet the top five candidates that have the right behavior and the right experience.”

It gives you also questions to ask. Like, there might be gaps. Like, maybe we want someone who’s more formal and good with the details, but this person doesn’t have it, so then it gives you behavioral questions to ask during the interview. ‘Cause, you know, like I know that I’m impatient, but I adapt, right? So again, it’s that back to that thing of not putting anyone in a box, giving people the benefit of the doubt, asking them questions to understand, like, “Have you worked through this issue?

Like, this role requires details, and you don’t love the details, so how do you manage the details?” and then through recruit… Are we just focused on recruitment? Yeah.

Mike: we’ll hit some other areas,

Karine: yeah. Yeah. and then afterwards what’s great is, like, we can al- Then we can also see how they’re adapting to their current environment, which is also just an interesting insight.

Like, if I can see that they have low morale being in the details, you know, I might say, “Huh, I don’t know if I think they’re gonna be happy in this role in the long term,” [00:19:00] right? But it’s really useful. Really speeds up the process.

Mike: How much of it is y- you know, you talk about for this role, let’s gather the information and come up with what the right profile is. I- is there a side of this too, if I’ve got a– If I’m the CEO and I’ve got a leadership team, and I’ve got, you know, 90% of my leadership team are kind of hard-driving, fast decisions, you know, and, you know, not really getting into a lot of the details, how much of it is, well, for this new role, here’s what we need, versus or maybe in addition to, hey, we’re really lacking this style of behavior on our team.

Like, we all move really fast. We need someone who’s gonna slow us down

Karine: Yes. Well, it, it’s interesting ’cause, like, if you’re doing it right, you’re doing this from the beginning, so you’re actually curating a balanced team, right? [00:20:00] So what happens, though, often is I come into a company that’s already 30 to 50 employees in, and I run all the analytics, and maybe my CEO and a couple of the leaders are, like, super high control, very low patience, meaning they’re making changes.

they’re low formality, so they’re changing things all the time. They’re, you know, the roadmap every month, there’s, like, a new thing. and then the entire staff is, like, high stability, doesn’t like change. You’re gonna have, like, a natural gap where it’s just not cohesive, right? Behaviors are not aligned.

I mean, we can say, like, everything should come from the whole company. It doesn’t. Everything trickles down from leadership. And so in an ideal scenario, that’s what we’re doing. If we’re cleaning things up, and we’re coming in, and we’re not gonna fire the whole staff ’cause the behaviors aren’t right, then it’s like coaching, and then it’s also the leadership having to meet somewhere in the middle.

Like, these are the people that you’ve hired, so that means, you know, maybe higher stability. It’s, like, tighter deadlines, being mindful of not changing too much, right? So when I do the team dynamic sessions, specifically with leadership, I take them through, [00:21:00] like, “Here’s your company that you’ve hired.

Here’s who you are. You have to meet in the middle to have a successful culture, otherwise it’s just not gonna work .” ‘Cause really, culture is values and behaviors, and those have to align. So if one of your values is collaboration, but as a leader, you’re not collaborative at all, it’s not gonna work, right?

And there’s gonna be a gap, and your culture will not feel as good as you want it to feel. So

Mike: So I wanna dive into that values and behaviors piece that you just mentioned. ‘Cause I have really interesting discussions with leaders where, you know, we talk about the idea, the importance of core values. And in my mind, a core– for a core value to be meaningful, you have to understand what the behaviors are.

They’re not just beautiful words that look great on a website. What are the behaviors? And then we get into the idea of, how important it is to hire for core values, right? We don’t hire people that are really they were great on their last jobs, we’re gonna teach them our core values, and then they’re gonna start living them.

No, [00:22:00] we need to hire people that are already living our core values. And the challenge becomes, how do you interview to understand someone’s core values? And I’ll give you the mistake I hear all the time is people go, “Oh, Mike, I do that. We do a great job interviewing for core values.” And I say, “Oh, give me exampl- an example of how you do that.”

And they say something like, “Well, one of our core values is extreme ownership. So on an interview, I would typically ask a candidate, I say to them, ‘You know, one of our values is extreme ownership. Tell me about a time…'” And I’m like, you’re giving them the answer to the test. Like anybody with half a brain is gonna be able to make something up.

So is there a way to use Predictive Index and the interview process together to, to better interview to understand whether someone is actually living your core values before you decide to hire them?

Karine: Yeah. I [00:23:00] mean, I tend to be more behavioral-based questions. I think a values-based question is… I mean, I don’t hate it. I like it. I don’t think I necessarily give the answer in the question if I am asking a values-based question. But I lean more into behavior, ’cause I think through behavior and through that story, you can pick up on their values, right?

But I also think that’s a really skilled recruiter or, you know, HR who’s listening, really actively listening. You can also see it in their resume, right? if someone is highly detailed, they have like a three-page… they’re trying to squeeze everything in. You can see they’re highly detailed, right?

And maybe we’re a fast-paced environment and we don’t have time for that level of detail. So I try to really focus in on the behavioral questions, and through my behavioral questions, I throw in… I try to make them re- really, intentionally a combination of behavior and values without naming out the value.

So I do prep for my interviews and make sure I’m being very thoughtful. But I’m also, because of the PI, I’ll have– I’ll take them through their results in the interview, right? And so that just [00:24:00] leads to a really organic, interesting conversation. You know, like, “Oh, tell me ab- I see that you’re frustrated at work over this thing.

Like, tell me more about that.” And I think it’s putting people at ease. Like, I don’t run a tight, you know, stressful interview. It’s much more casual. It’s a conversation. And within that, I can gleam a ton of their values. You know, it becomes quite obvious. And even asking something as basic as like, “What do you do when you’re not working?”

You can learn a lot about somebody with just that simple question. Or, “What made you love your last job? What was it about your last job?” And, you know, y- you can ask like quite simple questions sometimes and get a lot of information. So I agree with you. I try not to give the answers. And people also go on your website.

They see your values. They’re already coming prepared with that. So I try to avoid that if I can.

Mike: Where else… So we talked a lot, we just talked a lot about kind of the interview, recruiting, interviewing process, and you talked a little bit about team dynamics and using PI for that. where else do you tend to infuse the behavior, behavioral analytics, the [00:25:00] PI? Where else in kind of the life cycle of a business and managing and developing people, where else do you infuse it in?

Karine: I do it within the first week of someone starting. I take them through… I like to build out like slides with everyone’s, profiles on it, ’cause I think it… Like just to create a cheat sheet for people. PI also has a module that does that for you, but sometimes my clients only get one module and so I do like to build out like a cheat sheet for everybody, and I kind of lay out where that new person is and where they fit into the group, and we go through each person, you know, each team member’s profile so that they’re like not taking six months to understand how their boss likes to work, but they’re learning it pretty quickly up front.

some companies, when there’s like a project that’s starting as well, we’ll all get together in a room, even if it’s just for an hour. We lay everybody out, “Okay, here’s your project. You’re working on this for the next six weeks. Here’s your team. Here’s how they all like to work.” We talk about what, what could potentially go really well, what are potential gaps, and then we [00:26:00] implement whatever comes out of the gaps, so that again, we’re addressing stuff before we even start the project.

and it’s incredible. That’s what I’m talking about preventing things. Like you can actually see, “Oh God, this whole team is low patience. We need to create moments where they stop for a minute and think things through,” right? and then I also do it when I’m looking at like a talent development program.

I can see the sc- what skillsets might be missing. Soft skills, not craft-driven skills. But soft skills, like if, again, if everyone is very collaborative, you know, how do we teach people to be, you know, big picture thinkers, drivers, have, how to have hard conversations. So you can build a lot of soft skills trainings just looking at the company, analytics.

And then the team dynamic sessions are great, and then I also do it when we’re doing performance reviews, you know, when we’re trying to understand people’s initial, you know, individual gaps, and we can say, “I understand that you know, you really love being in the details, but if you wanna become a manager, you’re gonna have to learn to let go of those details.

Here are some techniques.” And then, when I’m performance managing someone, you know, at the end of the [00:27:00] day, if I’ve done your PI before you even started, and we’re talking, you know, and it’s the end, we’ve had a relationship. I’ve been coaching you all along. We’ve been doing performance conversations, and it might be that through our conversations, you’re coming to your own conclusion that this isn’t a fit.

So even when I’m terminating people, it feels so much more organic and less harsh, like, “I didn’t know that this was coming. I had no idea.” For me, it’s about really being human, and PI allows me to make people feel seen and be really human with people, and I think it’s a lost art, frankly. people are not just a number.

They should be treated with respect and kindness, you know. Even if it’s telling them something that’s really hard to hear.

Mike: Yeah, I think that’s such an important point, the point of treating them as human beings, making sure they feel seen. Because very often as leaders,

we tend to wanna treat everybody the same because it’s easier to do that. Here’s my style. This is the way I lead people. This is just who I am.

this is [00:28:00] what I do. And to make people seen, we have to understand, and this is the hard part of being a leader, you actually have to understand your people because everybody requires a little bit of a different style and flavor of leadership. and what tools like PI do is, you know, really shortcut it.

Number one, I would think, you know, it shortcuts your ability to figure people out and understand them and just increase the quality. not, it’s not just shortcutting it.

it’s giving you kind of a higher quality view of people that you might not figure out naturally

Karine: Yeah. Yeah, and also like even if there’s like, sometimes there’s like an HR thing where, you know, it might be a employee relations issue where a woman feels like she’s being discriminated against or vice versa. And, you know, you can say like, “Actually, it’s not that. It’s that this is behaviorally what’s going on, and this is the disconnect.”

And would… And I can ask people like, “Do you feel like actually this is the issue?” And they’ll be like, “Actually, you’re right. This is the issue.” [00:29:00] And, you know, it’s a great diffuser of drama. I really don’t like drama. I try to diffuse it as quickly as possible. And I think like, there’s a fine line between making people feel seen and allowing people to feel entitled, right?

So in HR, there’s just a balance that you have to ride. So it could be that someone is feeling a certain way about something, and actually I can appreciate that they feel that way, but the truth is the job requires this, right? And so there is a balance, but it, but by understanding them deeply, I can navigate how to get them to grow and maybe stop the habit that’s not serving them or that’s blocking them from success versus making it, less personal, you know?

I think, “Hey, this is your block, so how do we work through that together?” And they really feel like someone’s on their side versus like an HR person who’s, you know, just trying to manage them out. I’m always trying to manage people in. Like, if I’ve hired you, it’s because I believe in you. and I do believe that as long as the [00:30:00] other person on the other side of that coaching table wants to change and wants to grow, like you can get them there.

it’s totally possible. It’s all in their hands, of course, but it is possible

Mike: is PI something you take once and that’s your PI and it’s never gonna change? Or is it something that over the years does change either a little bit or significantly?

Karine: I mean, you know, according to PI, and I actually agree with this, it’s like your first PI is usually the most accurate. the thing that does change is that adaptation section, the self-concept is what they call it. And so sometimes I… if people wanna take it, you know, I’m like, “Yeah, sure, let’s take it,” and we might compare, you know.

Like, I have one friend who, she took a ton of change on herself, and yeah, she– her PI has totally changed. But that’s rare. Most people don’t change that much. You know, even if, like for example, with my patience, I can turn it on. It’s still there. It hasn’t gone anywhere. You know what I mean? I adapt to be more patient, [00:31:00] but there’s weeks where all my clients are calling me with HR emergencies, and let me tell you that, that low patience, the ability to tackle all that work in a short amount of time, comes in really handy.

So I think at the end of the day, we are who we are, and then we adapt to our environments. And then the more we practice at adapting to certain things, the easier it gets, and we feel it less, and it feels more natural. But our true s- our core selves are always there, you know?

Mike: Say a little bit more, explain. And,and I saw this when you debriefed my assessment to me. but, but– And I don’t remember exactly how the two questions were worded, but take me through the difference between kind of the view and the adaptive view. I don’t remember what the two

Karine: Yes, we can.

Mike: but take me through the difference of those two and why it’s important.

Karine: Yeah. The first question the test asks you is how do others expect you to behave? Which is a really interesting question in itself because it means that whatever you’re answering is your perception of what you think your boss wants you to do, [00:32:00] right? So at the end of the day, it’s perception. it’s not necessarily fact, but it’s their perception of the situation.

And, what’s interesting is, like, when you can look at the perception of what they think they need to be compared to what the role was designed to be at the beginning of the recruitment process, compared to who they naturally are, right? So there’s a lot of data just in that. but the distinction is really, I might feel like my client wants me to move slower, and so I’m adapting to move slower, and that might feel good, it might feel bad depending on the choice in it.

But there’s just always a gap between– not always, but, there’s always a shift. we’re humans, you know, that’s what makes us human is, like, we can adapt to our environments. And I think that’s what makes PI different than all the other tests out there is ’cause no other test is actually measuring how we adapt to our environment.

And so, what you find often in other things, like Myers-Brigg for example, they’ll be like, “Oh, I’m this, this, this, and this.” And [00:33:00] they’re like, “That’s interesting. You don’t show up like that at all.” Right? And actually… Yeah, ’cause I’m totally adapting to be something different in this role. so you know, for example, I’m an introvert in Myers-Briggs, but obviously I love to talk to think things through.

I’m very social, but I recover, you know, alone. But so when people saw the I, it completely threw them off. They’re like, “You don’t give that off at all .” So I just think the adaptation is just really important information, even if it’s for just the individual. But also, like I said, when I can pull it for a whole company, we can see so much information.

and I learned from my CFO at Media Arts Lab, you know, data is king, and the more I can put into data to influence my leadership, the better I’ll be as an HR. Because HR is often subjective, you know, and not everybody agrees on it. But when I’ve got that data, it’s an easy conversation. So

Mike: So I wanna, so one question was, how do people expect you to behave? And then the, what was the other question so you could see how

Karine: I haven’t taken it in a long [00:34:00] time. And then the second one is, like, how do I behave?

Mike: How do I behave? Yeah. So the interesting thing that I was happy to see, but I wasn’t surprised to see when you took me through mine, is those how do I expect– how do people expect me to behave and how I behave were very similar. And I imagine that is the thing, like, hey, I’m 61 years old.

I’ve been at it for a long time. My guess is 20 years ago, 25 years ago, when I worked for someone else, my guess is, you know, how I behaved probably was what didn’t change very much, but how people expected me to behave, there may have been a bigger gap

Karine: Oh, for sure there was an adaptation

Mike: the years of figuring out what I love to do and focusing on that more and more, there’s, there wasn’t much of a gap there at all, which in my mind means I’m, I feel pretty good about what I do every day, and I’m pretty happy doing what I’m doing, and it’s not as stressful in a negative [00:35:00] way

Karine: Yeah, of course. Well, the interesting thing is like our behaviors can remain the same, and then sometimes it just changes in the way that we show up, right? It could be that like, you know, you’re a big-picture thinker or visionary, but it doesn’t mean that you haven’t learned that being collaborative in your thinking isn’t useful as well.

And that almost feeds into your natural, big-picture thinking, right? So if you don’t fight it just… Y- you kind of embrace it already within you by collaborating with others. But even though you may not naturally be collaborative, but you care about big-picture thinking, it’s all about mindset, right?

so even if something doesn’t necessarily serve you right off the bat, you can figure out how it does serve you. You know, our strength is our weakness. sorry, I’m talking in very philosophical terms here. but it is true that, you know, again, it’s like my, it’s like it’s like my impatience.

It’s, it really does serve me in my life day to day. But sometimes, you know, I can be wanting to go faster than everyone else. That doesn’t serve me. So but it’s all a choice [00:36:00] at the end of the day, and I think as long as people are really honest with themselves, which is always the hardest part. A lot of people, when you take them through this, that they’re not even that aware of themselves, you know?

Or they have never thought about the words to describe themselves. And often I get that feedback of like, “Wow, it’s crazy how much information you’ve gotten from this,” and, “I’ve never thought about these words to describe who I am,” you know? So sometimes it’s like the first time people are really thinking about it, which is always really fun.

Mike: Yeah, I used to get a lot when I did, and I’ve used different assessments throughout my coaching career. I’d get people, some people pushing back, “I don’t know. I don’t really believe that’s me.” And then I’ll talk to them a week later and they’ll say, “You know, I talked to my wife, and yeah, that, that is, that, that is me. “

Karine: yeah, I’ve had a couple people push back. I’ve had a couple people push back, but they are behaving exactly like their PI.

Mike: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

so I wanna shift, as we, we start to move towards wrapping up, I do wanna shift from the behavioral analytic stuff to what you [00:37:00] do as a,fractional HR, you know, resource. So talk a little bit more about what you do in your role as a fractional, you know, HR resource, and in what situations does that role make sense for a CEO and a leadership team to think about bringing on to their team?

Karine: Yeah. It’s interesting ’cause I used to– When I first started my consultancy, I was doing more project-based work. I would come in and do something for three to five months, and what I found is that I don’t enjoy it. I don’t like being rushed. you don’t have time to build t-trust with the team. You’re trying to change too many things too quickly.

you end up becoming, like, more of a mercenary even though you’re not, or at least people perceive you as such. and so I, did a maternity coverage a couple years ago weirdly, and I realized like, oh, I love being a part of a team and I love, like, taking care of people and connecting with them.

And that was when I changed my business to start doing fractional work so that I could be part of the long game with my clients, and not just be [00:38:00] this, like, supplement. and that’s been really great. So sometimes there’s an HR issue that’s… I would say 80% of the time there is a problem. And so they’re calling me to come in to help fix it.

But then very quickly, I usually do PI for all the founders that I work with. It just allows me to understand how they like to work. I can be more in service of them, more effective. and then little by little, people start using me more and more. So I might come in and fix a problem, and then we might do an intake form so that I understand, like, what they have, what they don’t have, what are the gaps, what are they trying to solve for, what’s the business plan.

and then people can book me as much as they want. I can work five hours a month. I can work 40 hours a month, and it all just depends on how many things we’re trying to accomplish that month. And then, you know, usually I get an email and, sometimes there’s a junior HR person in place, sometimes there isn’t, and I’m not precious about the work that I do.

It’s really about working with great people who value my experience. so like-minded founders for sure. [00:39:00] I don’t like people who are not compliant or you know… I tend to avoid clients who don’t respect HR and see it more as like a necessary thing versus a value add, so I’m really picky about who I work with.

and then, you know, we just time block and make sure that everyone’s needs are met and, yeah, it’s been pretty great. So some of my clients I’ve had for three years, others are brand new, but, it’s been wonderful. I really love it. And so, you know, my business has, like, constant streams of revenue.

I don’t have to worry about it too much ’cause HR, you always need HR. There’s always a problem that’s coming and cou- sometimes it’s like everybody’s having an issue on the same day and I wonder what’s going on in the stars. But, it’s been really great. and I’m building relationships with people.

I, I… A lot of my clients will bring in PI because they love it, and then I end up meeting everybody through doing everyone’s PI. We run the team sessions and then, you know, there’s a-always a roadmap in place, and we tackle things as quickly or as slowly as they want. Yeah.

Mike: Are there one or two kind of [00:40:00] most common problems people bring you in for the first time, or is it really kind of all over the board?

Karine: I mean, yeah,it’s all over the board. But there’s usually some sort of a com- HR issue, like an employee is unwilling to do something, or they’re starting to make claims that they’re gonna sue, or… it’s usually already kind of messy by the time I get there. But it’s fine. It’s n- it’s nothing that intimidates me.

And I h- honestly think, like, even employees feel assured when they see me coming because they’re like, “Oh, we have a senior person.” So I always tell my clients, like, “Just be ready. The first three months, it’s Pandora’s box.” As soon as they see me arrive, like, everybody has something to say. and so I just take it one Zoom at a time and put together a list and try to make people feel safe with me, build the trust, and then tackle everything pretty quickly.

I’m a big… I hold myself accountable, so I’m always following up. Things are getting done. Things are moving forward. Integrity, one of my core values, and so when I say I’m gonna do something,I do it. But it’s been great. [00:41:00] I love it. I… And, you know, I can also be with my family in the evenings and not be working, you know,

24 hours a day. so it’s been really great.

Mike: Nice.

Karine: Yeah.

Mike: And so where should people go if they wanna find out more about you and,you know, inquire if they need some help? Where should they go?

Karine: they can go to, they can go to my LinkedIn or, so, you know, Karine Shahar, you can find me easily, or just strategic globaltalent.com. And you can contact me through my website and it comes straight to my email. And on my website, you have, like, all the, my different offerings and all the different things that I can do.

But I do see myself as, like, a Swiss Army knife. and, you know, if there’s something I can’t do, I know someone who can. So I have a huge network across every industry you can imagine, so I’m really blessed that way.

Mike: Excellent.

I always say if you want a great company, you need a great leadership team. Karine, great information. Thanks for helping us get there today

Karine: Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun. Have a wonderful day

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