Tackling the Hard Conversation with Mary Nestor

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Mary Nestor: Mary Nestor is a leadership strategist, speaker and author of Say It Now, Say It Right, and Bus No 7. She challenges leaders to stop avoiding hard conversations and start leading with clarity. And courage. Mary’s work focuses on eliminating workplace drama, addressing conflict in real time, and building teams rooted in accountability and trust.

Mike: Known for her direct, no-nonsense style. She equips leaders to say what needs to be said, when it needs to be said, because high performing teams aren’t built on silence. I love it. Mary, welcome to the show.

Mary Nestor: Hi. Thank you so much, Mike. I’m just thrilled to be here.

Mike: Yeah, I’m absolutely looking forward to this ’cause so many of my clients that I’m sure will get into this, but so many leaders I work with just let things fester for a long time before having a conversation. So I can’t wait to. [00:01:00] Dig into that and you can help me with some more tools to use with my clients.

and by the way, maybe help the audience too. That’d be kind of nice. 

But before we dive into the specifics of the book, Mary, what do you believe is the one most important characteristic of a great leadership team?

Mary Nestor: That is a great question. I started a new series on LinkedIn called Real Talk at Work, and so I’m addressing some of these different situations, but the one that today I just published today is all about inclusiveness. And not just, sometimes leadership teams can pull in the wagons and they make all the decisions.

They have the discussions and they don’t include all the stakeholders, the people, the SMEs, the people that are actually doing the work. And you miss so much when you do that. and, leaders that are willing to not only invite them to the table before the decisions are made, but they listen. And they take [00:02:00] into consideration the, expertise that these individuals have.

I’ve done many projects with, companies that, like, operators and I did a project with Monsanto in their chemical plant, and working with all of the operators was so interesting. And, they would come in and say, oh my, they just put it in a new computer system. We knew it wasn’t gonna work and it’s a mess.

But nobody asked us. And, so I think that, your leadership team is maybe a very small group of people, but actually your leaders are everywhere.

Mike: It is

Mary Nestor: Every individual in your organization is a leader. They are the experts. This, the guy who runs the, operate, the, Whatever you know, he’s doing from the shop floor to being a first level manager. They’re the experts because they’re closest to the company, the operations, the customers. And so you need those people into you, leadership team. You need [00:03:00] them at the table before you make all the decisions.

And I think that probably is the most inclusiveness.

Mike: Real, really important, and I see all the time leaders, not only do you get better information that way, but you start to find out who your. Next high potential leaders are down through the organization if you’re actually listening to them. so I love that. So I wanna dive in and somehow I think we’re gonna wind up, curving back into that theme over time in, in our discussion.

But, but I really wanna focus on the, your book. Say it now, say it right, and gimme a little background on why you decided. To write that book. Why did you think it was an important book to write?

Mary Nestor: Yeah. I’ll give you, just a little bit of background, before I did that, but I grew up, I’m, from a large family living in Gary, Indiana, and we didn’t really talk to each other very much. we was,the, Unwritten rule in our family was like, keep your mouth shut [00:04:00] and don’t ask questions and don’t rock the boat.

And so I never really had, a very good role model of how to handle discussions or speaking out or anything like that. So I grew up like that. And then I went through, growing up and getting my degree and all that and I got my first management job working for Marriott. And I had no clue.

How to manage people. I didn’t know how to talk to people. And, I had a very good manager. She was, a director for Marriott. She was in training and I was, we were in the benefits department. And so I, I did my best, but I, I thought I was a great manager. I had six people that were reporting to me.

And so one day she brought me into her office. She says, Mary, I need to talk to you. And, so I came into her office and she sat me down and she said, Mary. People don’t wanna work for you. They don’t like you. They’re afraid of you. I said, what? I mean, I was shocked. And she said, yeah, the way you talk to people, you’re always micromanaging them.

You’re always [00:05:00] looking, they say that you’re always looking for things they’re doing wrong and always looking over their shoulder. And I had no idea. I thought I was just the best, I was doing my best job. And that was a real wake up for me. And I respected her so much. And this is the other thing about listening, you have to be able to listen to people on either side.

And, she could have fired me, but she didn’t. She must have seen something in me that was worth developing. And so she kind of took me under her wing. she got me involved in all kinds of things. Got let me do some training and speaking while I was at the job. And that impression stuck with me forever.

And later on, yeah, I was still at the same job and I had a opportunity to do a presentation for, some managers. My first time, I got all set, and I gave my presentation and everybody was smiling at me and saying, you know, wonderful. And everything I got back afterwards, went in the ladies’ room and I noticed I had a piece of broccoli stuck in my tooth and I was [00:06:00] horrified.

So I went to my assistant and I said, oh, I can’t believe I gave this presentation. She goes, I know. I said, you knew it was there and you didn’t say anything. She said, I was embarrassed. I thought it would fall out. You know? And and that was another reason why I wrote this book, is because people do things and they have no idea what they’re doing.

And they could be hurting themselves professionally or personally. And if somebody, nobody tells you, if nobody is kind enough to say something, you know, we all. Pull back and say, oh, I can’t say anything because I’m gonna hurt their feelings, or they’re gonna be mad at me, or there’d be some repercussions, for me.

and, but the kindest thing you could do, like my manager for me to tell me what she needed to say and for my assistants to say, Hey, get that outta your tooth before you do your presentation. And that, and, also my experiences in, in management, in, human resources. I spent many years as an HRD.

For different organizations over the years [00:07:00] and people, employees coming to me and complaining about their managers and their boss and I can’t stand my boss, or I can’t work with this person anymore. And I would say, have you talked to them about it? Oh, I can’t do that. And those kind of things for myself.

And then, just getting the feedback from employees over the years. So important. The nicest thing, the kindest thing you can do is to have that conversation. Because most people aren’t, aren’t aware of what they’re doing.

Mike: What is it specifically, and you ran through a couple of them quickly, but I wanna dive into it. What is it that holds people back from speaking in those critical moments? Because a. I don’t know a lot of people that truly believe you shouldn’t speak up. Like when I confront them with, oh, I get it.

I should have said something. I shouldn’t have waited this long. But so many of us, and I say us because I have fallen victim to it as well, so many of us hold back. [00:08:00] What are some of the reasons, the big reasons you’ve seen, why people hold back at those, especially at those critical moments?

Mary Nestor: Yeah , Well I think sometimes they happen when there’s a lot of people around and so you go, it’s just not the right time. I don’t wanna say anything. it could be that, again, I’m afraid to say anything because I’m. Going to hurt their feelings or they’re gonna be angry with me, or it’s gonna hurt me professionally.

if I speak up, I may not get that promotion, or I might be shoved aside somewhere, or I don’t know how to do it. you, a lot of times people will get, be in a situation and they get mad and they get angry, and then they blurt something out, which is the wrong thing. And if you’ve done that a couple of times, you’re probably very shy about, oh, I gotta keep my mouth shut.

Especially you’ve had repercussions in the past. some people just don’t know how to do it, or, in the past, like myself, I never had any experience in that kind of conversation with [00:09:00] anyone. And so I just didn’t know, I didn’t feel comfortable saying anything. And, fear is it doesn’t matter if you’re the CEO, the top president or anything.

it’s just, it doesn’t, everybody I think struggles with this kind of thing. And or, and mostly it’s not knowing how to do it right. How do I break the ice? What do I need to do to make it not sound like a judgment against you? Or how do I, you know, how do I have people listen to me

Mike: So let’s talk about.

Mary Nestor: Let’s talk about both of those things, kind of the fear piece, and then we’ll talk about the how. 

Mike: And I wanna start off with the fear, and I think sometimes, although it’s not the only way, sometimes the way to get over that fear is to kind of understand the cost. of not speaking up and realizing how costly it can be.

So obviously, you talk a lot, in the book, in the work you do about the danger of not speaking up in the moment. What are [00:10:00] the biggest costs of leaders? Either never speaking up or, and actually maybe I’ll separate this out. I wanna understand then two things ’cause I’ve seen both. One is. What’s the cost of a leader never speaking out, and if you believe it’s different, what’s the cost of speaking out? But waiting too long to do it because I’ve seen both with some different ripple effects.

Mary Nestor: Okay, so the first one you said is speaking out, but

Mike: The first one is what are, what’s the cost of not speaking out at all?

Mary Nestor: not speaking out. Oh, there’s so many for leaders. first of all, silence is also communication. So if you don’t say anything and things are going wrong or you’ve got an, an employee that’s, that needs to, you know, bad performance or whatever, you never bring it up.

They’re gonna feel, they would think, everything is great, everything is wonderful. So they don’t know. And what they don’t know, is gonna hurt you. And for the organization and the worst part of it is that everybody else know. Us. [00:11:00] And so your, your team is sitting there and you’re not saying anything.

And this person is saying a meeting, they’re hogging the meeting and they’re, they won’t shut up. And, you’re just stand sitting there and you’re not saying anything. You’re not managing it well, the rest of everybody else around the table’s going, there they go again. you can’t speak up.

And you’re losing credibility. you’re losing, believability. You just. You don’t have that, you’re not coming off as a leader and they want somebody to take over and solve this problem. And so a lot of employees just feel like they’re left adrift. If they don’t have a leader that’s going to help take, they want you to have their back.

If I, and that’s not my place at sitting at the table to tell this person to shut up and, let somebody else have the floor. It’s the leader’s job to do that. And if they won’t do it, everybody suffers. There it is frustration. It’s you just wanna go somewhere else. You just don’t wanna go to that meeting.

And that’s not going to, first of all, this person doesn’t, if you don’t take [00:12:00] action and help this person be quiet and let everybody else participate, you are missing out on so many ideas and so many. great ideas that somebody else around the table would have, but they don’t feel like they can speak up.

it’s, it has so many repercussions, like dropping a pebble in the pool, it just goes out and after a while, people just get, they get frustrated and they feel like they’ve been abandoned.

Mike: I don’t wanna go to the meeting,

so speaking of this idea of. Giving someone feedback, either in a group or one-on-one. And in your case, they’re talking too much at re meetings. What are you doing about it? 

So here’s where I want to talk about, not just the cost of not speaking up. but the cost of waiting too long and speaking up, and I’ll give you a little example that I’d love you to just take it and run with it in whatever, however you’ve seen it, is specifically around delayed feedback.

So if there is, and I’m gonna, I’m gonna go with your example of someone that just talks too much in a meeting. [00:13:00] They’re hogging. The meeting is if that happens once. And you pull them aside during a break or after the meeting, say, Hey, you’re talking a lot. I want to give folks another, like, you can do that and it’s probably not gonna feel like you’ve dropped a bomb on the other person if you say it right.

And I want to talk to you about the how, certainly, during our discussion. but it’s probably not gonna feel like you’ve dropped a big bomb on them. But when I talk about delaying that conversation, having it, but doing it six months later and saying, for the last six months, you have just talked so much in these meetings.

Now, to me, when that happens. It now it feels like you have dropped a bomb on this other person. Like, oh my God, this has been going on for, like, I’ve had broccoli in my teeth for six months and no one has ever told me about the

Mary Nestor: told me.

Mike: what have you seen,on, on that [00:14:00] cost of delayed feedback, delayed communication.

What impact does that have?

Mary Nestor: it has know impact for the person and also for the leader. if you come back after six months and you’re gonna tell somebody they got broccoli in their teeth, they’ll go, you. Why didn’t you tell me? You don’t have that much respect for me? You let this go on for so long. In other words, you’re participating in all of this.

You let me go on for six months and you never let me know. Did you do that on purpose? Were you trying, I mean, see then you don’t trust that person at all. I wouldn’t trust a manager that waited that long to tell me about something because for six months now I’ve been made a fool of, or I could have improved.

Do you really care about me? Do you really? now, why are you telling me now? I would be very suspicious and trust. Once trust is gone, it’s very difficult to get that [00:15:00] back. You just wouldn’t trust anyone. I wouldn’t, for, so for that person, why would they’re gonna lose their respect for their manager.

They probably lose their incentive for performance. They really don’t care about the organization. you’re not gonna get, they’re not gonna be a high performer, or they’re not going to, they’re not gonna trust you later on either. So then now you’re gonna ask them to do a big project or I’m gonna give you this help.

Oh, right. You surely will. they’re just don’t, you’re just not believable anymore. And I think that’s probably the worst thing that ever happened to a leader, is that people don’t trust you. They have to trust you. It’s better to say, to have that conversation right away. And the, the way you form it, where you do it, how phrase it and everything like that is so important.

But it, you can’t wait. You can’t wait. And again, silence is communication. They’re gonna keep doing what they’re doing. And you let me do that. You let me do this wrong for six months before you told me, and now you’re coming in. I would say, why did you do that? What was your motive?[00:16:00] 

Mike: Yeah. And I love the message you’ve used it a couple times. I actually wrote it down ’cause I love it, is this idea of silence is communication. Like if you think. I haven’t communicated anything to them about it yet. Yes, you have. Silence is communication, so I love that. The other thing in terms of the cost of this, and maybe this is me just planting the seed in your head as you listen to this, as a leader, Mary, not your head.

I don’t think you need this seed, but the listener, I think does is the idea of when in the moment. You feel like you need to tell somebody something, maybe it’s feedback. Maybe it’s a decision that you’ve made that may be a difficult discussion. Maybe you are disagreeing with their point of view.

but I guess I’ll continue to use feedback as an example. If something happens in a meeting and I have a piece of feedback for you and I hold off. For fear of the uncomfortable conversation. and let’s be [00:17:00] honest, you’re not, what I’ve seen is it’s not really that you’re fearful how they’re gonna take it.

You’re fearful about how it’s gonna make you feel, having that

Mary Nestor: Or how it’s gonna make you look.

Mike: Right. But if you hold off on that every. Minute, every day, every week that you’re holding off, that conversation gets harder and harder to have because, if six months later you say, Mary, you’ve had broccoli in your teeth for six months,

Mary Nestor: Right.

Mike: a difficult message for me to send.

Oh my God, she’s gonna kill me that I knew six months ago, as opposed to, look at you in the meeting and, raise your hand and going, Mary. Like in the meeting, or at least, pulling you aside real quickly. So I think that’s the other thing is the longer you wait, the harder it gets to have that difficult discussion.

Mary Nestor: Yeah, the, and the heart and. The, what, the impetus to finally have that conversation is usually because somebody higher than you, like your manager, [00:18:00] sits you down and says, Hey, this has been going on. I’ve been hearing about this for six months. Why haven’t you done anything about it? So that then you go, oh, I guess I better do something.

So then you go and, it’s just, it’s a, you’re looking bad not only to your ben, to your team, but to whoever you report to,

 I mean, there’s a lot to lose and that’s usually what happens to a manager or a leader who is, who waits and waits and waits somebody else gets on them.

Yeah. And so it’s bad on both. You’re kind of squeezed in between two bad situations.

Mike: Yeah. It’s either someone else tells them, or the problem just gets so bad you don’t have a choice. And why would you wanna wait till it gets that bad? 

Now I wanna get into, from this idea of fear and the cost of doing it and the mindset. I wanna move into more of the how and mindset is a big part of the how too, but. You’ve got,you say in, [00:19:00] in your book that you’ve gotta check your motive first. That, that before speaking, you’ve gotta examine your own intent, or your thoughts about the other person. Talk about that a little bit. what does that mean? That you’ve gotta check your motive first?

Mary Nestor: Okay, oh , your motive.why are you, confronting this problem in the first place? Or why are you saying it now? Or why are you saying it this way? Because you should always come from a place of building up and helping somebody improve their, performance. Never to tear down, and there’s a lot of different, I worked for, as an HRD at an organization and, I was the, I was told by the, secretary of the president of the company, I reported to him and she’s told me, she says, watch out for him because he likes to pit people against each other and then watch and see what happens.

So I thought, wow, and so motive, you talk about motive. this is what, this is kind of the way he operated that would, that’s [00:20:00] never, you never wanna take advantage of a situation to make somebody else look small or to embarrass them in front of everyone or to, in desperation or exasperation, you finally blurted out at the wrong place the situation or something that they need to improve on.

It is just so important for your heart to be right, because if you can have the right words, you can have the best situation, the best setting, but if your heart isn’t right, it doesn’t matter. It’s never gonna come off, as something that’s, you’re trying to help someone improve their performance, it’s not gonna come off that way.

Mike: when you talk about your heart being right, one is your own motive, but. Talk a little bit about what, when, if I’m about to have a discussion with you at a critical moment, a difficult discussion, how important is it for me in my own heart to, in, how do I wanna say this? how is important is how I’m thinking [00:21:00] about you.

Right. So if I, if someone is, being a pain in the ass in a meeting and I think they’re just, they’re always doing this, they’re just trying to throw a wrench in. If that’s what I think of you when I confront you, my attitude is probably not gonna be one that is most conducive to us solving the problem.

If I think you’re being a jerk on purpose. So talk a little bit about how should we be thinking about the other person when we’re having this difficult conversation or giving this difficult feedback?

Mary Nestor: Okay, maybe I can give you an example. from my own,perspective. So I was working at, an organization. It was a nonprofit and my boss was, a nice guy. He was an accountant. I’m the HR creative person and he’s this numbers guy. So anyway, whenever you would go into his office, he didn’t have any chairs for you to sit in, and he did that on purpose because he didn’t want people hanging out.

in his office. So [00:22:00] if you went in, you had to stand there in front of his office as he’s sitting in his big, nice leather chair. And,a couple of minutes was no big deal. But if the conversation went on and on, it just was rude to me that I was, had to stand up in front of his desk while he was sitting down the whole time.

And that really got me mad. And, so anyway, I thought about that and if I had talked to him, said something at that moment, I might’ve said, Hey. I why this? I, this is really rude to make me stand here. So I didn’t, that was not the right time, and my heart was not right. I was too, I was too angry.

So I went back and I thought about that. And, one of the things that the, there’s three components and we’ll probably talk about that to make it work. But, that was not the right setting. my heart wasn’t right. And I would’ve blurted out something that would be the wrong words. And so I waited and,went back and did my thing, but every time I went into the office to talk to him, it would just come right back up again.

So it wasn’t too long after that he was in my office and sitting [00:23:00] down, and we were both sitting down. I have chairs in my office, HR has to have chairs. So we were talking about something else and, we finished our conversation and he says, oh, Mary, is there anything else that you need to talk about?

Bingo. So I said,there is something that’s been bothering me lately and I’d like, can I, tell, can I discuss that with you now? See, that is the other thing too. You asked permission because he said, sure. And so we talked about it and he had no idea how I felt. He didn’t realize that it was rude.

And, he said, but he admitted that he doesn’t have chairs in there, but he has a table with chairs around it. So I said, and the other thing you need to do, if you don’t like the behavior of someone need to tell them what your expectation is, don’t just leave it out there with nothing. So I said, when I come in, it’s just a couple of minutes.

It’s not a big deal, I says, but if it, goes on for a while, maybe we can move over to the table. And [00:24:00] continue our discussion. He go, that’s a great idea. 

So after that, it was almost like a joke. So I would go, then he goes, do we need to sit down yet? But you know, see how that changed. That changed the relationship.

That changed the situation. I was able to, at the right time and see, he was in my office, see, he was in my little domain, which made a difference, and I asked him, can we talk about this? And of course they’re gonna say yes most of the time, or if they say no, then you table it for another time. And so we had a great conversation and when I left, he sent me, gave me a card and was very nice.

And he said, Mary, thank you so much for showing me the human side of business. And to me, that was just the most highest compliment I could have gotten because he was not, he’s not a touchy-feely guy, Mr. CFO, but. You. That’s what you gain when you can have these conversations and when you can confront people and you [00:25:00] can solve problems and find the, you know,and,it just changes.

It’s life changing. I’ve said this before, when you can finally have that conversation, it’s not just the other person or solving the problem, it’s your self-esteem. You feel more confident, you feel more relaxed. People are more relaxed around you. And it just, it can’t help. It can’t, but just lift everybody up.

So after that, we were just like a different kind of a team.

Mike: That’s amazing

Mary Nestor: that’s what happens.

Mike: Yeah. 

and you alluded to this earlier, but part of it’s the idea of redefining what being nice is.

Mary Nestor: Like, like you could have avoided that conversation and thought, I’m gonna be nice. I’m not gonna say anything. But that was probably the nicest thing you can do.

Mike: ’cause my guess is that impacted not just how he treated you when you walked into his office, but probably everyone else.

Mary Nestor: Everyone else. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. You [00:26:00] make people aware. awareness is, that’s part of it too. It’s not that you wanna, tell people what they’re doing wrong is that most people don’t have a clue. A lot of, they just don’t realize what they’re doing or what’s going on. Or how other people are reacting or what their, what their actions or inactions are doing to them for their own reputation or to the organization or for the team.

they just don’t know it. And the nicest thing you can do is to say it now, say it right and, let them know from the point of you wanted. See, I, by the time we had that conversation, I was calm and I wanted him to know because other people felt that way. And so you know, it, and you’re right afterwards.

He, it was a different kind of, relationship with a lot of people that were on his team because he could, he could know that. 

Mike: And plus he was, he thanked me, I mean, if somebody tells you that you got the broccoli in the teeth, thank you so much, instead of letting it go for six [00:27:00] months, that metaphor. I’m gonna use that metaphor forevermore. Like someone’s holding back on a conversation. I’m gonna be like, if they had broccoli in their teeth for six months, would you not say anything? let’s. Let’s dive into to an example and maybe you could help figure out like what are those three steps if it starts with, the setting and asking for permission.

let’s make this practical. 

So let’s imagine that we are both on a leadership team, and I’m gonna, I’m gonna say that, Neither of us. Neither of us is the CEO and I’m saying that purposefully ’cause I don’t think it always needs to be the leader of the leaders that is confronting someone.

It could be anyone around the leadership table, but let’s say we’re both on a leadership team and one of our core values as a company is all about respect.

Mary Nestor: Okay.

Mike: you,and I am behaving in a way that [00:28:00] is disrespectful in meetings. I am, interrupting people. I am, putting people down in and outside the meeting.

I’m doing something that, is pretty visible in there. And you are a member of the team and it’s, you believe it’s impacting. The team. It’s impacting you. It’s impacting me. what would you do you, again, I’m the, I’m that person who’s acting up and being a little disrespectful as a member of the leadership team using your process, how would you, how should you,confront that?

Mary Nestor: Okay. 

the first part of it is, the first component is timing. is say it now and say it now. Doesn’t always mean say it right now, but sometimes it does. So if you were, we were in a meeting, I mean, I’ll give you a couple of scenarios, which you could do that. so you’ve said something, you may be insulted someone and I could say, gee, Mike, that sounded a little bit like you were being critical.

Is that what you were trying? Is that what you were [00:29:00] doing? Ask a question. I didn’t say what you were doing. I just asked a question. Okay. At that moment. you could also, afterwards you could come and say, I, I have something that I need to share with you, that could be hurting. your effectiveness in the team.

Can I do that? And you may say, okay, what is it? You know, and then you can confront it, just the two of you together. Um, but The way breaking the ice is so important. How do I do that? You don’t just say, boy, you were a jerk in that meeting. Yeah. See, that’s judgmental. That’s not coming from a place where you wanna build somebody up.

Okay. so you could, you could, say it immediately or you could say, or say, if you were saying something in the meeting that I totally disagreed with, and you said, this is the way it should be and this is the way it should be. And I could say, I see things differently.

I’d like to share my thoughts. It’s

Mike: If you

Mary Nestor: you don’t put, yeah, you don’t put the other [00:30:00] person down.

Mike: so let’s go. I wanna take it a little further. 

So in this scenario where you, where I was being disrespectful in some way and you pulled me aside after the meeting. and said, you know, tell me again how you would introduce it, but give me a sense what, again, in the scenario where you pull me aside after the meeting, what is that?

what’s your objective? and are there set of steps you’re taking to have that conversation? Like, let’s kinda play that through. how would you have that discussion? You said it starts with a question.

Mary Nestor: Yeah, because you’re gonna say, you, you could walk in there. Okay, say, what if I walked in your office, or, so we pulled you aside and hey, I, you would act like a jerk in there. I need to talk to you about that. So how are you gonna,

Mike: Yeah, I’m gonna get incredibly defensive

Mary Nestor: there

Mike: act probably more like a jerk.

Mary Nestor: right?

And so you’re closed off, you’re not gonna listen to anything. and you could come, and then I could say,I, the motive would be. Say, if I was in that situation, I, it’s [00:31:00] embarrassing for me to sit there and watch that because everybody else, because you’re embarrassed with the person because you know that everybody else can’t stand them.

And so how do you convey that to somebody?you could say, I really care about you. you’re, you are so effective in your management team, but there’s something that I have observed that looks like it could be hurting you, your effectiveness in the. Meetings.

Can I share that with you? and then Yeah. And then, then I can say, you’re always interrupting. It seems like you’re always interrupting people. And I’m looking at, for me. So then tell what, how it affects you. For me, I’m, it’s embarrassing. I’m embarrassed for you because I know that everybody else, it’s taking time out of the meeting, it’s using up my time where we could be having a better discussion.

And, so I just wanted to share that with you. and, maybe you could tone it down a little bit.

Mike: What do you think? Then ask them, what do you think? so how could you, what are some of the ways you could respond and [00:32:00] say, wow, or, I just have to say what I have to say, I’m in the meeting too, and you could say, yes, you are in the meeting too. I’m also in the meeting. And so I would like to be able to share my ideas, but if you take so much time away, then it’s not enough time for everybody to share.

Mary Nestor: See, I’m coming from my truth. I’m coming from my own thoughts about how it’s affecting me. I’m not saying you.

Mike: Yeah, how it’s affecting you and May, and how it’s affecting the team as well.

Mary Nestor: Exactly. Exactly that. And you’re just, this is my observation. Yeah. And they may say,Whatever and turn around. 

And that’s the thing is that you can’t, you have to say what you have to say, from a place of building up and the right timing and the right words and body language that all goes along with it and the right setting.

But you have to kind of give, give up the, end result you have no control over that you [00:33:00] don’t have any control over how Mike is gonna take my intervention or my comment. you may go, and I covered this in the book, you’re gonna get lots of different kinds of, responses because people sometimes will go, they’ll go, eh, whatever, and turn around, they’re thinking about it.

They’re thinking about it. ’cause they’ve, nobody’s ever confronted them before or they’ve never really thought about it, or they, nobody’s ever told them. And you have to kind of trust and that’s where that motive thing comes from. you have to know that your heart is right, that you really wanna have people improve.

’cause there’s so many instances and we all know it. I’ve been in business and management teams forever and there’s a lot of people in there who just wanna put you down so they can look better,

Mike: Yeah. What I’m hearing

Mary Nestor: or, sabotage or something like that. And it just. Yeah.

Mike: Yeah, I’m hearing a few things that, that I just wanna highlight that, that are super important that you’re saying. One is, you’ve gotta [00:34:00] go into it with your heart in the right place, your heart in terms of your own motivation and what you believe their motivations are. 

So what I’m hearing is a few things I wanna highlight as being important. One is your heart’s gotta be in the right place, right, in terms of your intent, but your belief in the other person’s intent. Because if you go in and and your attitude is, I just gotta tell this guy, he’s being a jerk. You are not getting anywhere. So if you go in with your heart in the right place, as you said before, you’re asking permission to have the conversation. And what I heard too is you’re going into that conversation with curiosity. you’re asking the question, you’re trying, do they realize they’re behaving that way?

Do they understand the impact it has? Do they have any ideas on how they might improve it? And if your heart’s in the wrong place, you’re not really gonna have that curiosity. You’re just gonna be angry and frustrated with the other person. So I think that’s

Mary Nestor: You’re gonna say things you wish you didn’t.

Mike: [00:35:00] Yeah. and you’re gonna make the situation worse and not better.

Mary Nestor: Yeah. 

And if your intent is to embarrass somebody, you’re gonna say it, and this goes to say it. now say it right. You’re gonna do it in front of other people. You’re gonna do it in the meeting and

Mike: I’ll show them.

Mary Nestor: I’ll show them. Yeah. And, or you’ll bring it up, or it’ll be like a side sideways, like the sniper.

I said, people like. The snipers hide in the shadows and they, boop, and, you can do that too. I did. I, one of my posts on LinkedIn was about microaggression, these little jabs that people give each other, and that, that’s just, it’s never gonna come off. Right. Plus you are damaging your own reputation.

that’s so when I sign my books, I always say, find your voice, take a risk, and speak your truth. And that kind of sums it. The, ’cause it’s, this is my voice, I have, if I feel frustrated or I’m, I think something is rude. I have, that’s my impression. So my voice [00:36:00] is to speak what I feel, how I see things, and then you take a risk because I’m gonna speak up and say something.

And then, so your heart is right. Find the right timing. And the right words and body language, and then keep your motive clean.

Mike: For. 

For the leader or let’s even say the CEO listening that is thinking, I don’t have an individual communication problem, or we don’t, we have a culture on our team, or maybe even in our company. We have a culture of avoiding the tough conversations. where should that leader or leadership team start?

Are there a couple of practical steps that they can take to build more of a culture of saying what needs to be said in the right way at the right time?

Mary Nestor: Yeah. first of all, I have to model it, but I have a couple of exercises that I used. I did a, we did a culture [00:37:00] change for a, technical college in Augusta when I was doing my consulting work. And the president of the company was he said, I’m Mary. I’m the worst one here because I, it’s my way or the highway.

And so we, but he really wanted to make some changes. And so we, we did this in meetings and it was a way of getting people a opening up conversation so that everybody has a voice and everybody has a change. So one of ’em, and these are really simple. So you can do this tomorrow at your, with your teams.

So you get in the beginning of the meeting, you everybody, 2 cents, two pennies. And you say, we’re going to have, this conversation, so you, everybody can, you can speak up, but when you do, you, you hand in a penny and so then you have to wait or your 2 cents, and then you have to wait until everybody else has said before you say something again and then encourages everybody to speak up and also everybody gets a turn.

So that’s a very simple thing. and it’d be a fun icebreaker in the beginning of a meeting to see, because that really opens up a lot of [00:38:00] conversations and a lot of discussion. The second one that we did is, everybody got three sheets of, sheets of paper, like a, like a traffic light, red, yellow, and green.

And so if you’re having a discussion about something, you have to make a decision. So you’ve had your discussion back and forth. Everybody’s yelling at each other or whatever. And so he is, okay, we’re gonna make a decision now. We’re gonna do this or this. And so a lot of times we will say, I’ll vote.

Or the people who’s the loudest at the table, and the rest of ’em are shrinking back and they’re not saying anything, which is a terrible way to make a decision. So you would, say, okay, in the middle of the table, if you totally agree with this decision, a hundred percent. Put your green card out.

If you can, it’s not your best decision, but I can live with it and I will support it. You get your yellow card out there if you totally disagree, a hundred percent the red card, so everybody puts their cards out. If there’s any red [00:39:00] cards, you have to continue talking,

Mike: Interesting. I

Mary Nestor: so you continue talking until you got either green or yellow. It doesn’t have to be all green. But see, everybody is putting their own, they’re saying what they, how they feel. It’s not, so you don’t have to think about, wonder about, oh, Joe, who never speaks up in the meeting. And by the way, I had a manager that if you were invited to a meeting and after the second time you never said anything, you didn’t participate, you didn’t get invited anymore.

More, because I mean, what good are you at the meeting if you’re not gonna say anything? So this is a, it was a really effective way of doing that. And for the person who has, reservations and you want those people in your meetings, you want them there because they may have an insight or, a perspective that nobody else has that could be a total disaster.

And so you want to not shut them up. You want them to give you their view. And understand them. And so you wanna come [00:40:00] to the place where, again, where everybody’s green or yellow. And the yellow is important because even though I don’t totally support it, I can, I mean, I don’t totally agree with it. I am making the commitment that I’m going to support it.

So everybody puts their cards on the table.

Mike: I like that. Two, two things I’ve seen and done. One, one I do all the time and one I’m just thinking of now, and I haven’t done it in years, but the thing I do all the time with leadership teams is I’m a very big user of flip charts and post-it notes. And when there is a question for the group to answer, I don’t just dive in and have the discussion because there are gonna be people that are gonna.

hog the discussion and other people that like to sit back and the people that sit back may never be heard. Everybody puts what they think on a post-it note. It goes up on the flip chart and we talk through all that. So that’s a way to make sure everybody gets heard. And then what I, that’s the one I do all the time.

The one I’m thinking of now that I probably haven’t done in [00:41:00] 10 years is. is sometimes the reason why people don’t get heard is because other people talk too much. So the way to deal with that is, is I made it used to make for my teams, a sign. It was like a laminated sign, and on one side of the sign it said, sold.

Sold meant shut up. we understand what you’re saying. Stop talking about it. So people just put up a sold sign and on the other side it said tangent. If you were going off on a tangent that was taking us off of what we needed to talk about, you’d hold up the tangent and that. So the sold in tangent.

Really helped in a way that was a little bit more tactful than shut up your talking too much. it was a way and people would giggle a little about it like you are, which was good. ’cause it was a way of, in a nicer way to tell people to shut up either, the sold or tangent. So I found that was kind of an interesting [00:42:00] tool that I’ll probably go to my closet and find those signs again.

I haven’t used them in a

Mary Nestor: Yeah. and they’re not, they’re just subtle ways of, and they’re not gonna embarrass anybody. It’s just that, we’ve all kind of decided to do that. 

And I would ask, the CEOs or managers that leaders that are listening is if you have a meeting about something and you’re asking for ideas, and afterwards, after the meeting, somebody pulls you aside and says, I had this really good idea, this happened.

Or they send you a text message or you, I didn’t get a chance to say this. You’ve got a problem. Because people don’t feel, they either don’t feel comfortable speaking up in your, in the group, or there is not the opportunity. Somebody, the meeting is out of control or you’re not available or you’re not listening to everybody.

Or sometimes there are certain stars that come in the meeting, depending on levels or whatever. And that’s all the old people that are listened to. Or they’re asked for opinions. And so if you’ve, if that’s happening to you after a [00:43:00] meeting and people are coming up later to say, I’ve got something, then there’s a problem.

Mike: Agreed. Yeah. the meeting after the meeting.

Mary Nestor: the meeting after the meeting and, and the, it’s not just that the, the idea wasn’t expressed for everyone so that they could then, contribute to it. It’s just that there’s a lot that are never gonna be said. Nobody else is gonna hear them. And, they probably will, they won’t have an opportunity to vote on them or let’s discuss that, or maybe that’s a better idea.

the other thing I’ve said, and this is, this can be a little difficult, but you should have a,somebody in your meeting who’s sort of a devil’s advocate. if you’ve got a bunch of yes people, it says, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They’re always saying yes to you. And then in their heads they’re saying, this is the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard of.

You know, somebody can say, and the person you choose could be the one who’s usually the most vocal, and say, well, listen, you know, we don’t wanna just, we don’t wanna just everybody say yes right away, but think of some things that could possibly happen that [00:44:00] would be, detrimental to the company, or it would, this wouldn’t work or have another point of view.

This is the time to speak it out. Or maybe you could do that with your post-it notes. everybody finds some something. what’s a reservation you might have about this? So what do you think might happen if we do it or don’t do it? And then you’ve got all that discussion that pulls it out, and as you go along, you become that leader, that manager that, CEO, that wants to hear.

I want to know. I’m not afraid to let people talk. You’re, you are. That’s how you show that you value. People, you value them for what they do. And that was the whole point of my,real talk at work today is that people who do the job are the experts. If you wanna know about, you’re having bad customer service, you know, numbers, ask the people on the front desk, bring ’em in, get your, get your, bellman in there.

They can tell [00:45:00] you, those are the people and value people. That’s how. You ask them the question, what have we missed?

Mike: Mary, this is such an important. Topic and the book is such an important book. 

Where should people go if they wanna find out more about you and how to work with you if they wanna get your book? Where? where’s the best place for people to go?

Mary Nestor: Okay. They can go, the book is available on Amazon. it’s at Barnes and Noble. could be in your bookstore. so you can buy the book there. it’s Kindle and paperback. This is what it looks like. Ta say it now, say it. Right. And it is also, it was published in, translated into Spanish by, penguin Random House.

Picked it up and, it was, came out in, March of last year. So you can get that. so a Kindle version is not audio yet. But we’re gonna do an audio version of the book. it has, right now people are using it in different ways. It’s a great gift. A lot of people are buying this [00:46:00] for their, any new employees that come in.

I have one organization that gets one for all their interns. It’s a great first step to learning how, from the very beginning on how to talk to people and not let those moments go by. It also has, discussion questions and, lots of fill in the blanks. So that you can use it for training. Some are using it for communications training and of course I do training and also coaching, executive coaching on, on communications.

And I’d like to offer for, your listening audience. If you buy 250 copies of my book, I would be more than happy to do an hour zoom meeting with your leadership team on discussion or a coaching session. So there’s lots of ways to do that and, you can find me. It’s my website is, my name. It’s mary j nestor.com and that’s how you can find me Also on Facebook.

It’s, Mary j Nestor, author and on LinkedIn. So please, look me up on [00:47:00] LinkedIn and catch the latest issue of Real Talk at work.

Mike: Take her up on that great stuff. 

I always say if you want a great company, you need a great leadership team. Mary, thanks for helping us get there today.

Mary Nestor: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. It was a pleasure. 

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