The Secret to Maximizing Influence and Behavior Change with Owen Fitzpatrick

Mike: [00:00:00] What do Tony Robbins, Daniel Pink, Robert Cialdini, Nir Eyal, Marshall Goldsmith, Jonah Berger, Zoe Chance, Richard Bandler, the founder of NLP, and Mike Goldman all have in common?

Give up? They have all endorsed Owen Fitzpatrick’s new book, “Inner Propaganda,” who is, I think, three times on the show now. I’m all mixed up, but I’m actually gonna read his intro and I’m stealing it right from his new book. This is gonna be everything about his new book. 

Owen Fitzpatrick wrote a suicide note at 14.

A single question, “Is this how much you love them?” changed the story he was believing and launched a three-decade obsession with why the mind clings to ideas that harm us. A social psychologist, Owen has traveled to [00:01:00] more than 100 countries and studied propaganda firsthand in places like North Korea, Rwanda, and Afghanistan.

Also an award-winning filmmaker and former television presenter, he brings the craft of storytelling to his work. He’s worked with leaders at Google, LinkedIn, Pfizer, and Coca-Cola, studied negotiation and influence at Harvard Business School and MIT, and is the author of nine books translated into 20 languages. His rhyming TED Talk, “Mind Control,” has reached more than 1.4 million viewers. He’s originally from Dublin, Ireland. He now lives in New York City. He’s got a great podcast called “The Inner Propaganda Podcast.” He’s been one of my best friends in the world for the last five years. I don’t know why he still hangs out with me.

But Owen, welcome again to the show

Owen Fitzpatrick: Thanks so much, mate. As always, a pleasure.I wonder as well why I still hang out with you, but you know, [00:02:00] sometimes it might be community service or something. No, really appreciate the lovely introduction and, really been looking forward to, chatting with you again on the show. Always love our chats, so excited to dive in today

Mike: Yeah, and we’re gonna spend our time talking about Owen’s newest book, as I said, Inner Propaganda. Amazing book. I’ve read it cover to cover. It is out this week. We’ll talk about how you can get it later, and we’ll probably mention the book 20 times ’cause Owen, isn’t marketing the book a lot more fun than writing the book?

Owen Fitzpatrick: Yeah, sure. Sure, it’s amazing. I’ve, I’m loving every second of it. You know what? I love the actual doing these podcasts. Like, I love talking about the book. This is my favorite, most, favorite project I’ve ever worked on. I love reading, going over the book. I’m even doing the audiobook, and I’m actually enjoying most of it.

It’s a pleasure to me because I love the process of writing it so much. But the whole, reaching out and promoting it and [00:03:00] marketing it and talking about it and trying to get people to buy it, yeah, it sucks the life out of me. So, I’m hoping … to get it in as many hands as possible. I believe in it, and so, hopefully when this week is over, it’ll show quite a lot of people have been, tempted to add it to their reading list and then find it as valuable as possible.

I’m very proud of it, and so I’m just trying to get it into as many hands as possible. But to your point, it’s not so much fun selling the book. I much prefer writing it

Mike: Oth- other than conversations with me. That, that, goes without saying. 

So Owen, before we dive into everything Inner Propaganda, I always ask the same first question, and you’re no exception. From all of your experience, what do you believe is the one most important characteristic of a great leadership team?

Owen Fitzpatrick: I think a great leadership team, has mastered the art of communicating with each other as [00:04:00] effectively as possible. And when I say that, that’s obviously a high-level statement. What I mean is they’ve created a feeling whereby they feel comfortable sharing candid communication with each other. They feel able to listen to each other and change their mind.

I think a great leadership team has the capacity to have a flexibility in their beliefs, so they don’t fall victim to this desire to promote them their own status or, be the one that’s always right. They’re able to walk in and not have to feel like the smartest person in the room. They’re able to go in asking questions, learning from each other, being open to changing their mind, and I think that’s what makes an amazing leadership team

Mike: And everything in your book and everything we’re gonna talk about today obviously supports that. 

So let’s start with, so the name of the book is “Inner Propaganda.” I don’t think we need to explain to anyone listening what propaganda means, but those two words together, [00:05:00] inner propaganda, people have not necessarily heard.

So what is inner propaganda, and why did you decide to write the book?

Owen Fitzpatrick: Since I was a teenager, I’ve been obsessed with understanding everything I could about why we believe what we do. And I visited North Korea. I visit- not as a teenager, but since then, I visited North Korea. I visited Rwanda to learn about the genocide that happened back in 1994. I remember being fascinated listening to them talk on the radio and talk about how the radio station was promoting this propaganda, calling the Tutsis, it was, between the Hutus and the Tutsis, and the Hutus, the, these militia of the Hutus, started a process of Genocide is the only way to put it, and, what they did was they would label the Tutsis as cockroaches, and this is a traditional sort of label that’s used.

We’ve heard it used in terms of [00:06:00] throughout history. It’s still being used today to justify genocide. It’s always like they’re animals. They’re cockroaches. They’re ants. They’re… Jewish people were called vermin by Hitler back in the day. So this is… I remember hearing about that radio station that was doing this and learning about the vehicle that propaganda played in driving the desire to commit, like, horrific acts.

These are neighbors that turned on neighbors, and I was fascinated with how does that happen? How does Nazi Germany happen? How do we believe what we believe? So I visited North Korea, to understand what’s it like,a regime or a nation that is experiencing very blatant propaganda today.

I’ve a degree in history, so I’d studied a lot about it in terms of the Second World War, and the more I went outside, the more I traveled and learned about actual propaganda, the more it connected me with my own experience with my mental health. So I’ve struggled with depression, anxiety in the past, and when you [00:07:00] feel bad, you don’t just think negatively.

It’s like, “Oh, I’ve a negative thought,” and then you go, “Oh, okay, I need to think positive,” and then that’s how it works. You’re completely convinced that reality is awful, so you live in a world where the reality is that everything just sucks. Everything is terrible, and as a leader, that’s often the trap we fall into, is that we distort reality based upon the way in which we feel at that moment in time.

So I started to realize the same mechanisms that happen in actual propaganda, where you’re convinced by a government, or you’re convinced by the channels that the government is using, that the reality is a certain way. We do that to ourselves all the time. Our brains are the ultimate inner propagandist.

So that led me to the notion of inner propaganda and, just like, propaganda could be used to cause people to obliterate a population, well, the inner propaganda that occurs is what drives people to suicide. I mean, we convince ourselves in the very same way that we’re convinced by others every single day, and in order for [00:08:00] us to be able to overcome mental health challenges, make smarter decisions, influence people more effectively, or even heal through polarization- The more we can understand how inner propaganda works, how we build beliefs, how we convince ourselves of things, the better equipped we’ll be to be able to reverse that, to be able to bring ourselves together with others, to understand each other more, to influence each other more effectively, and then to influence ourselves more effectively so we can, improve our mental health, make smarter decisions,and believe better, as I call it.

So that’s really, for me, what I mean by inner propaganda. It’s the stories we sell to ourselves that become the beliefs that we buy into. And the more you understand the game and how it’s played, the more you can start to play it smarter and better.

Mike: So how do you tell the difference between a belief you have that is, quote-unquote, “true” versus, [00:09:00] propaganda that is hurting our ability to have a good life and behave in ways we wanna behave? How do we figure out what’s true or not going inside our heads? And I know I wanna get into how you define truth as well, because you’ve got some really interesting thoughts on that I think would be helpful.

Owen Fitzpatrick: So I’m gonna say something that a lot of people are instantly gonna disagree with, and I think it’s important to say it because it’s something I feel very strongly about. It’s not always the optimal route to figure out what the truth is. The goal shouldn’t always be the truth, right? The truth can set you free, but sometimes it can lock you up.

And what I mean by that is I believe we’ve five types of truth. We have objective truth, which is what we all know is true. This is… we can verify it with proof that this is true, and we need objective truth for science, we need it for engineering, because you have to make accurate predictions. If you’re building a plane, you have to [00:10:00] make accurate predictions based upon what you know in order to ensure that plane functions the way it’s supposed to.

When you’re building a building, every invention that we build is based upon the need for objective truth. The problem is, in most society, we don’t always use objective truth because we can’t. Because if I’m trying to figure out why did Mike do what he did as a leader, then that’s not necessarily objective truth I’m gonna find out.

All I can do is observe your behavior. But we often mix the facts with the stories we tell people about the facts. So I believe we also have other types of truth, like we’ve past truth, which is I believe it’s true because I remember it that way. Now, our brains are notoriously unreliable when it comes to memories.

So our memories aren’t actually capturing a memory and bringing it back the way it was. We reconstruct what is experienced in the past, and every time we reconstruct it, we change it a little. So how we remember things is not how those things were. Therefore, what we believe is true [00:11:00] because it happened in the past isn’t necessarily exactly how we remember it.

We also have, what I call emotional truth, which is I believe it’s true because I feel it’s true. And we often will go with feelings and we will confuse fact and feelings and we will feel that it’s true and feel that it’s a fact because the feeling of certainty is so strong. We also have desired truth, where we believe it’s true because we want it to be true, right?

I wanna believe in this. I wanna believe that if I eat chocolate, it’s good for me. Okay, like, eat some chocolate, it’s good for your heart overall. I don’t know. There’s research out there that can pretty much back up whatever it is that you wanna believe. And then finally, there is, shared truth. If me and Mike both agree on it being true, then it must be true.

So we find a tribe to be part of and we agree with what all those people say, and as a result of that, that becomes true. And whenever people will talk to me and go, “Yeah, but that’s not real truth because, objective truth is the only form of truth,” but every other form of truth masquerades as objective truth.

No one turns around and goes, “This is emotionally true for me.” What they’ll say is “Look, this is true. This is the [00:12:00] truth.” But actually, what they’re talking about is something that feels true. So instead of us arguing with them about the fact that it’s not true and trying to have that conversation, which most of the time we can’t prove anyway, instead, to me, it’s a useful way of thinking about it to go, “Okay, what kind of truth are we playing with here?”

Because sometimes desired truth, believing what you want, can be the best thing in the world, and sometimes it can be the worst. For example, if, you were in a situation where you’re building a startup and you believe that this can work. If it works because of the grit and resilience that comes from the belief that this will work, beautiful.

That desired truth has helped you to create the startup. Like Sara Blakely, right, who,the inventor of Spanx, who created a multi probably billion-dollar enterprise there. Amazing. James Dyson, who went through 5,000 plus prototypes in order to be able to invent the Hoover. So, like, these are examples of people that their desired truth helped them succeed.

Melanie Perkins from Canva, again, another example. They had no right to believe. [00:13:00] She had no right to believe that she was gonna be successful. She was from some part of Australia, and she’s mixing up with these, folks from Silicon Valley. Like, she had no right to be, but yet she was so brilliant that she was able to make it work and she believed.

Then on the flip side, if you’re working for an organization and the leadership team, falls into shared truth or desired truth, they just believe what they wanna believe, then that becomes problematic, ’cause then they don’t bring the problems. They ignore the problems.

They put their head in the sand, and they just keep believing what they want, and you’ll be found out, ’cause in the business world, there’s no hiding place, right? Numbers are numbers, and you’re either earning money or you’re not. You’re either losing money or you’re not. So sometimes desired truth can actually have a problem.

And so what I try to tell people is it’s not so much about is it true or not. I think sometimes that’s a flawed question. It’s what kind of truth are we playing with? Because once you realize it, then you can go, “I can keep believing this, because by doing so, it helps me.” And then really we ask ourselves a new question: Is this belief useful?

So is this truth [00:14:00] useful? Is believing this is true useful? And in the context where we’re doing science or engineering or something that requires objective truth, great. But in the areas where our belief that something is true will help us or harm us, now all of a sudden we’re talking a different type of truth, and that’s kind of where I’m…

I differ from a lot of people who are sometimes really annoyed with the fact that I’m saying,there’s more than one type of truth. They’re like, “No, this is like wishful thinking. This is… The… You don’t get it. You don’t …” But they’re programmed to have this what we call naive realism, where they think, “The way I see the world is the way the world is.

The way Mike sees it , yeah. He’s the victim of propaganda and dumbness and ignorance and stuff like that. But if only he knew what I knew, he’d see it the way I do, which is objectively true,” when actually it’s not. Most of the time it’s just a story you’re selling to yourself and you buy into it.

Mike: And even objective, like even someone listening to this might say, “Yeah, I get all that, Owen, but, obviously objective [00:15:00] truth is like the best truth.” But, if, if your wife says, does my ass look fat in these pants?” Is objective truth the right thing to use in that situation?

And the answer might not be yes, if you wanna stay married

Owen Fitzpatrick: Exactly, and that’s the thing. 

It’s like there’s a dullness, like to turning around and… Look, glorifying objective truth, I’m all for it. I think objective truth, we need more of it in the world, and I think if there was more objective truth, we’d make smarter, better decisions in a lot of cases, because you’d be basing it on what’s going on.

The problem is, it’s so hard to get to in the world because there’s so much noise, because there’s a lot of ambiguity in the press, and the information that we get doesn’t just come to us straight. When it’s distorted by the news, like once you learn about inner propaganda, you never look at the news the same way, ’cause you are always asking, “What is the goal of the reporter?”

So, if I turn on Fox News or CNN, I’m asking myself the question, “What are they trying to get me to do? What are they trying to get me to believe? What’s the story they’re [00:16:00] selling?” And when you look at all news from whatever side you’re on, let’s say, or whatever area that you support or whatever, and you start to understand everything is mechanized in order to persuade you of a certain point of view, you never look at news the same way.

It kind of ruins it for you, because you start to go, “Oh, this is the story they’re selling today,” because it lines up with how people on the right or people on the left look at things. Now, the clap back at me will be, yeah, but, you’re saying it’s like truth is subjective. I’m not saying that.

There is such thing as objective truth, but a lot less people know it than you would think. A lot of times, even if we know objective truth or we can define it, most of the time when we talk about objective truth, we’re not talking about objective truth. We’re talking about a different form of truth masquerading as objective truth.

So just because you’re correct, objective truth might be the promised land in 90% of the cases, doesn’t mean we’re as close as we think we are to it, and that’s the [00:17:00] problem. When people comment on… sometimes I put out on social media a video and I’m trying to convince people to challenge whatever beliefs, they, they have, and to be more,cognitively humble, for the way in which they consume information, and not just assuming that their explanation is right.

And they agree with me. Most people are like that, and this is why they’re like that. So they’re sharing their own inner propaganda while explaining, this is how the world works, because our brains need coherent, simple, easy explanations. And that’s a problem, because it means that we delete nuance, ’cause nuance and complexity and the fact that life isn’t always black or white, it doesn’t sit well with a brain that just wants to conserve energy and keep us safe.

So, understanding that from our perspective means we can go, ” Okay, given that this is what’s going on, let me recognize the propaganda going on inside my head,” ’cause you’ll never control it. But the more you recognize it, the more you can start to direct it and influence it so that you are [00:18:00] creating the better environment for yourself and therefore for the folks you work with, the other leaders on the leadership team that you work with to ensure that you’re functioning better

Mike: I’ll tell you the other thing this does for me in thinking about these different forms of truth is it opens my mind up to being more accepting of other points of view versus thinking, I’ve got the truth.” 

Just this whole concept opens my mind up to maybe I don’t always have it right, whether it comes to, left or right politically, or whether it comes to, you know, a-around the leadership team table.

There’s another example I heard you use. Actually, it was on a social media post you used that you put out that I really loved. When you think about it, it opens your mind up to different points of view, different beliefs and values which allow you to just better get on in the world and influence others.

A

nd [00:19:00] Owen, it was one where you talked about a conversation you had with a gentleman in Afghanistan about stoning. Talk a little bit about that because that, that impacted me, really strongly, and I think it’s kind of the same message of, we don’t have a monopoly on the right values or the right beliefs or what the truth is.

Owen Fitzpatrick: So I think first of all, just in response to what you said there, it helps you when you recognize, okay, maybe I don’t have the objective truth. Maybe I’m not 100% right. I think the 

other thing

 to ask ourselves is, does it really matter? Right? Does it matter that I’m, I have the truth or not?

Because ultimately I always ask, “What is your goal? What are you optimizing for?” So if I’m in a… Let’s say I’m trying to, I’m talking to you and I go, “I know I’m right.” Well, the question is, what is your goal? What do you need to optimize for? Is my goal to make it so that Mike believes me so that he is able to do what it is that I want him to do?

Or is my goal to maintain the relationship or [00:20:00] what is my goal? Like in a negotiation, for example, in the business world, sometimes we’ve gotta concede in order to have a long-term relationship so that we can get more the next time. Sometimes our very concession becomes a strategy that allows us to be able to prosper because the relationship is better as a result of this.

In relationships, it’s the same thing. So if my partner asked me questions or we’re in an argument, the question that we often ask is, “Would you prefer to be right or would you prefer to be happy?” Right? And of course it’s a false equivalence, but the reality is in that situation, sometimes it’s not worth the while to try to, as Adam Grant would say, logic bully the other person by trying to be right all the time.

And I think a lot of times we create problems in relationships because we’re obsessed with this need to be right. But once more, how do we know we’re right? We’re just assuming that we’re correct because we’ve rationally convinced ourselves of whatever it is that we believe is true, and then we try to use logic or reason to do that, which really doesn’t work nearly as much as we would [00:21:00] think it does.

So getting back to the example over that conversation, Afghanistan, when I had a conversation with him, I asked him about a number of things, and obviously he was telling me about some of the cultural differences in terms of the way women are treated. And inside of me, I felt very bad listening to him because it’s, it was against my values and what I care about, what I think about.

And then I asked him, and we started talking about stoning, and he explained how stoning works, and he walked me through the experience. And I remember being shocked and disgusted and appalled inside, and every part of me was like, “That’s so messed up. That’s so ridic- That’s so horrible. That’s so horrifying.”

But he wasn’t explaining it from the perspective of he wasn’t a bad human being. He had just developed and learned that from his own point of view, and we do similar things. I mean, capital punishment is still something that happens in terms of the Western world, right? In still some parts, I believe, of the States and whatnot.

Was only overruled in, the 20th century, I think, in certain [00:22:00] countries in the Western world as well. So capital punishment is effectively, if it’s an electric chair or if it’s lethal injection or whatever, we can comfort ourselves with the fact that, well, we’re much more humane.

We’re not stoning someone, and there’s something to be said for that. Like, I wouldn’t disagree that it’s, it feels more humane, but ultimately, we’re killing people for their crimes. And again, I’m not making a statement of this is right or this is wrong, because ultimately, if someone does something to someone I care about, I can imagine myself being okay with, capital punishment, okay with anything, because I love them so much and it would, make me so disgusted.

But it doesn’t matter. Well, I’m a psychologist. My opinion about anything outside of psychology means nothing. There’s all these people that are experts and, “Oh, I’m a psychologist, therefore, let me tell you how politically things should change.” Doesn’t mean I can’t have an opinion, but it means I’m not under any illusion that no one really cares about my political opinion or no one really cares about my opinion about…

Or no one should care about my opinion about capital punishment or my opinion about stoning or my opinion… The [00:23:00] point is, if we grew up in Afghanistan and we grew up in that, way of thinking and we lived his life, we’d probably believe the same thing as he did. If we grew up in Nazi Germany and we were exposed to what they were exposed to, we might believe the same messed-up, terrible stuff that they believed.

This is the problem, is that we all think that we are the one person who wouldn’t fall for that, and that’s because we have the luxury of having grown up in a different context, in a different reality. And some people will turn around and say, “No, you can reprogram yourself,” but they’re so dogmatic and certain of that.

Like, some of the comments on that video were, “But there’s morally right and morally wrong,” and then they go into the moral argument. And I didn’t once say, “You know, the great thing about stoning is it’s a really efficient way…” Like, I never said anything positive, but they’re programmed into falling into the trap where all they can think about is, “I need to let people know stoning is wrong.” But I don’t think that’s, I don’t think that’s up for debate. I don’t think there’s people that [00:24:00] are watching my videos at least that are going, One of the questions I had was, is stoning good or bad? I’m not sure morally.” Right? No one is looking at my video wondering, “Oh, Owen is gonna reveal to me if this is a good or bad thing.”

My opinion wouldn’t even matter. 

All I was trying to point out is we are so arrogant often, and I say we, I include myself in this group, in thinking that we have it right. We have a civilized society where we do things in the proper way. And may- a- and I believe that as well about a lot of the customs we have.

I still think stoning is disgusting as a practice. However, that is because of the culture that I have developed, and there’s a lot of messed up beliefs I have. And my point I also made about this person in Afghanistan is I also witnessed the incredible hospitality, the incredible caring of the folks that I met there.

They’re such good people in so many ways, and I think we fall into a trap of immediately villainizing, or, [00:25:00] exalting the various people based upon one behavior. So we turn around and we go, “Because they believe in X, that means they are disgusting human beings.” It’s so easy for our nice little comfortable brain to believe that.

But the problem is, by doing so, we exclude everything else, and we start to live in, a binary society where we just see people are either A or B. You’re either a good or bad. You’re either in the good side or bad side. And I think that makes our brains happy ’cause it means it’s nice, simple little world for us all.

But it’s tearing the society that we have apart. It’s polarizing us against each other, and it’s creating a sort of a, like I said, a naive realism and arrogance where we think to ourselves, “Everyone who doesn’t believe what I believe is wrong and dumb or evil.” And those labels become a big part of the inner propaganda we use on ourselves as well.

So we start to buy into this, and that’s one of the reasons I wrote the book, is to try to help us understand that, so that we can do a little better, maybe have a little bit more cognitive or intellectual [00:26:00] humility, challenge our thinking a little bit, not assume we have it. And that in turn helps us, number one, understand others, so we heal a lot more the polarization.

But number two, it goes back to what are we optimizing for? You’re trying to influence the other person. If I’m disagreeing with Mike, if my goal is to influence him, step one, shaming him does not work, right?If I shame you or logic bully you, you just respond back. You have motivated reasoning.

You’re just gonna find a way to, to be right. So instead, how could I make Mike open his mind more? And the first step would be by demonstrating I get it from his perspective. 

I get you. I understand you. And if I make you feel that I understand you, that feels right to you. You’re much more open and receptive to what I have to say.

If I connect it with who you are and what you believe and your culture, your values, you’re much more receptive, and then I have a shot at influencing you. That’s how it works. And to me, the mistake we’re all making is we assume if we just beat the logic into them, and then they’ll see [00:27:00] the error of their ways.

Doesn’t work in the real world. That was a long answer to a simple question.

Mike: No, but it’s great, and it’s so important and impactful. And one of the things I’ve heard you say w- which is like a moment where you just say, “Duh,” and like hit yourself on the head is all of us, of course we believe we’re right and the other side is wrong, and we believe that everybody else is impacted.

It’s propaganda. They believe that because of this propaganda. But it’s never us. We’re not victims of propaganda, it’s everybody else. And what you’re helping, I think, us all to understand is it impacts all of us, We don’t have … Nobody has a monopoly on the right answer.

And I wanna pivot us to the importance of all this in business and on teams and how it impacts changing behaviors. And one of the things I’ve heard you talk about to influence and to drive change is that we’ve got to appeal [00:28:00] to sacred values. And by sacred value, I think that means something very different than, the five values, on the poster up on the wall.

When you talk about sacred values, what does that mean, and how does that impact our ability to influence and drive change as leaders in a business?

Owen Fitzpatrick: So if you think about when we talk about sacred values, if you think about– and that was a term developed by Scott, Atran and his colleagues when they’re discussing the values that are so much more impactful than the typical values that might drive decision-making. So for instance, a non-sacred value would be around cost and benefit and, the value that comes from, logical, rational, reasonable examples that if you do this, you’ll be better off.

But a sacred value is something that is unquestionable. So if you take, for example, the example I like to use for myself is I have a… I’m absolutely in love with my country, so I absolutely [00:29:00] love Ireland. I’m so proud of it. Now, you might argue, “Well, you live in a different place,” but you won’t hear me, talk badly about my country.

I lo- unless it’s two other people from my country that are, we’re in a debate. But, like, I’m immensely proud. And so if that’s challenged in any way, I will become unreasonable. So I will fall into a trap where I will dismiss or respond negatively to any sort of, conversation where that might go the wrong direction.

And so what’s critical is that we need to be better at ensuring that we are, aligning ourselves with the kinds of values that make most of the difference. So if I’m trying to influence you, I need to understand what your sacred values are. 

And this also connects with,what we talk about when we look at fairness.

So when I talk about fairness, I’m really looking at, the feeling that will drive decisions, and oftentimes we will sabotage something which is within our best interest because we feel it’s not fair. So the feeling of fairness very much is like sacred values. In other words, we will be irrational [00:30:00] because the idea that something is unfair is so painful or so aggravating, it will trigger us so much that we will do whatever we can to ensure we promote this.

Even if it means we get less than we would’ve ordinarily, if we perceive something as unfair, we’ll say no to the negotiation, no to the deal. And that’s why a big part of being a great negotiator in business is cultivating a feeling of fairness. But this lines up with these, sacred values because a sacred value is something that means more to you than money, means more to you than a good deal.

Even if you’re better off as a result of the negotiation, if it conflicts with your sacred value, you’ll still refuse it.

You’ll still reject it, and this is the problem. So what we need to do is recognize what is a absolute critical ingredient for that. And they have a fascinating study that I mention in the book between, Israelis and Palestinians when they were, doing some negotiations. This, now this was before the recent, events, let’s just put it mildly to avoid going into it.

But before that, they had [00:31:00] some studies where they, had Israelis and Palestinians and they were negotiating. And whenever it came to sacred values, that was where the more money you offered them, actually the more they would respond negatively. So, offering them more money when it conflicts with their sacred value, they’ll be even more like, “No way.

 You’re not gonna buy me,” because those values are so critically important. And also in the research, it found that when they actually expressed, instead of just focusing on money, they actually talked about how much, they apologized or they, valued the person, what the person cared about, that actually improved the response from the person as well.

So often we’re not just driven by the logical, reasonable, rational benefits, we’re also driven by what we feel really matters. And so if we are to be effective as a leader, we need to recognize what truly matters to the folks that we lead. Because if we don’t connect with that, we don’t connect with who they are, we’re not gonna be successful at leading them

Mike: So, Owen, how do we do that? If I’m a leader [00:32:00] and I’ve got a team of five people that report to me,

Owen Fitzpatrick: Mm-hmm.

Mike: My, assumption is those five people don’t have all of the same sacred values. How do I know as a leader, right? That’s when leadership gets tough, when it’s like, “My God, I got, I’ve gotta treat everyone as a unique individual and behave differently and influence differently.”

How do we find out what someone’s sacred values are so we can work better with them and influence them and help change their behavior in ways that help them and help the team?

Owen Fitzpatrick: So, first of all, I think the big mistake we make is that let’s say we, are trying to create culture with our teams, right? So the big mistake we make is we try to project to people, “These are the values that we want you to have or exhibit.” And that mistake is, “We want you to have integrity, we want you to care about the customer, we want you to do…”

Like, this is table stakes. It’s like when you say, “This is a [00:33:00] value,” and it’s like, what’s the value integrity? Oh, okay, so there’s companies out there that don’t value integrity, right? It’s nonsense. It’s like saying, “It’s important for us not to murder people.” W- well, o- okay, that’s an obvious one. So to me, when I see organizations focus on values, that’s the mistake.

What you wanna do is you wanna be able to figure out, as you do in your work as well, is what are the values that you want the company or organization to stand for, and then, as with the talent density stuff you do, which is different to, a lot of the performance management, things out there, is that you then look at cultural fit as being an integral part.

So you figure out what the values are, and then you hire for that, right? Now,I’m starting that just as a sort of a preamble because I think it’s critical for us to recognize that when we decide what values the company stands for, it’s really important that the folks that we bring into the team have those values as well and align with those values.

But that brings me to the answer to your question, which is how do you know? You- get to know the [00:34:00] person. You spend time asking questions. You start to figure out, what matters to them, what do they care about? Why do they care about it? You observe the behaviors, you listen to the stories they tell in their interviews, let’s say, about what’s going on.

You watch them when they’re actually working. What do they emphasize? What matters to them? What’s important? Because you could have someone out of that group of five on your leadership team, and they can’t function unless they have full and total autonomy. They pride themselves…

it’s a form for them of self-expression. And so for them, the worst thing you can ever do to them isn’t to dock their pay, it’s actually to, micromanage them, right? Because autonomy becomes almost sacred for them at that moment in that situation. Or somebody else in your team, it might be, they want transparent communication.

They love honesty and transparency as much as possible. So if you’re trying to, work effectively with them, you need to know that because if you, are trying to make them feel good and say, “Oh, no, no, I’ve got no feedback, you’re doing amazing,” that can actually, play a large part in determining how unhappy they are because they’re not getting the [00:35:00] information that they’re looking for.

So it’s really critical to get to know your team as much as possible, to ask more questions, and to observe how they respond or react to different things, to try to go, what matters the most? Now, you can ask them, and sometimes they will share with you as well. But I think it’s a mistake to assume everyone has the same kinds of sacred values.

Everyone cares about autonomy, the same way. No, not necessarily. For some people, it’s a deal breaker, for others, it’s not. The ones it’s a deal breaker for, that suggests it’s more of a sacred value. And sacred values are often, it’s more about, human, responsibility or truth or justice or fairness or any of these higher levels when we talk about sacred values or things like your identity is wrapped up in, like, Ireland or whatnot.

But sacred values can often be the deal breakers or the rule breakers for you. It’s like, if we don’t have this, then it’s not worth it.” And so the more you, spend time getting to know your team, the more you’ll understand what matters for that specific person, and that in turn will allow you to [00:36:00] understand how to communicate better with them.

Mike: And I think, Owen, you’re getting to the heart of something that most leaders I come across suck at, which is asking good questions, right? Because– and by the way, if you’re listening to this and you thought, “Well, okay, I’ve gotta go ask my team what their sacred values are,” no, that’s probably not the right answer.

‘Cause by the way, Owen, if you ask me right now what I think my sacred values are, I, I don’t know that I’d do a good job answering. And I’m interested in your thought on this, if you agree, ’cause I don’t think I’d do a good job answering. However, if you spent time with me, and I suggest, weekly one-on-ones with every member, of a leader’s team.

If you spend time with me informally and more formally in one-on-ones asking me questions about challenges I have and what the real challenges are and what is most important in solving that particular… If you spend time asking me [00:37:00] good open-ended questions, you are probably gonna find out more about what my sacred values are than anything I can tell you if you ask me what my values are.

So talk about that a little bit and maybe the power of asking the right questions.

Owen Fitzpatrick: As soon as we’re asked a question, automatically, our brain goes into automatic pilot, right? So it’s what’s the answer to the question that I need? And the reason it does that is because when whenever we’re asked a question, we reach for whatever is right top of mind. This is known as the availability bias.

So we’re more likely, to remember things that have happened recently, but we’re also more likely to gather whatever we… our first response is and give that and assume that’s true. So someone says, “What are your sacred values?” You might spit out something like, “Well, I believe in fairness towards people.

I believe in caring about people. I believe in, being good.” And you’ll use a bunch of perhaps cliches because we often think in cliches. That’s what our initial automatic responses are. And so it’s only when you ask good questions that you’re [00:38:00] digging beyond the cliché. You’re… I mean, that’s what great interviews are.

This is what you do a lot with the questions you ask, is you’re trying to probe deeper than the surface-level answer because the surface-level answer oftentimes is noise at worst, and at best it’s a cliché. What you’re looking to do is to go, “Well, what’s really going on?” So I might turn around and say, “Integrity is important to me.”

And then you go, “Okay, well, what has been a situation that you felt really challenged with where you’ve said, “Look, I can’t deal with this anymore.” And then the more we talk, the more I go, “Well, the thing that really drives me mad,” and then I start complaining about something. When I’m complaining about something with a lot of passion,and we’re friends, you’ve heard me complain about things, there’s certain times you will go, “Okay, this is something that really matters to Owen.

This is something he needs.” And sometimes I’ll talk about the complaint and I’ll go, “I can’t believe they did this or that or the other.” If you flip that around, that lets you know what Owen needs. So if, for example, I used to have a real problem with when people are condescending.

That was the [00:39:00] most annoying thing in the world to me. Now I don’t really mind it too much, to be honest, a few years ago, it drove me mad. And so I would complain about someone being really condescending, and when I do that, that shares with you something really important to Owen is to demonstrate respect, to see him on the same level.

Because if you start talking down to me, that’s gonna be a big trigger for me. And so it was only because I became aware of the fact that, look, I am, reacting, I’m triggered a lot whenever someone talks down to me, and that’s not always in my best interest. But it was my, awareness of that that got me to then work on that to the point that now it doesn’t bother me.

But there’s other stuff that might still bother me, and it’s a constant process of recognizing what is it that’s triggering me? What is it that I get very sort of, annoyed about? What frustrates me? What do I love? What do I respect? When I’m talking about Mike, what are the compliments I might give about Mike behind his back?

Now, there’s few and far between, but what are the compliments that I give about Mike behind his back? [00:40:00] That tells you what I value. It doesn’t necessarily

Mike: Wait a minute. I thought I was just gonna get a compliment. I was waiting for the compliment and y-

and you just, you turned left 

Owen Fitzpatrick: I said, behind your back. So if I say, for example, “One of the things I like about Mike is,” and then I give you a compliment, that tells you that is important. So if it’s, for example, how great a storyteller he is, that gives you a compliment, but it also tells the person listening to me, “Owen really respects and values someone who’s a great storyteller.”

How, honest and sincere he is, “Owen believes that sincerity and honesty is important. ” whatever we do in those contexts, when we’re asked different questions, we’re more likely to share and open up to people, “This is what’s going on for me. This is what I feel is true.” Therefore,it allows us to know, okay, this person really cares about this, so therefore I can consider that as I’m trying to communicate effectively with them

Mike: Just to be clear, and I’m sure there’s not one right answer here, but [00:41:00] should, as a leader listening to this, should they take away from this that they should go back and have this conversation and ask some great questions to try to elicit what someone’s sacred values are?

Or is it more of over time building a relationship, asking the right questions, paying attention, that you will learn those sacred values over time? Or is there something people could do tomorrow to get a better sense of somebody’s sacred values?

Owen Fitzpatrick: I think it’s a combination. I think on the one hand, you wanna be able to build a relationship, focus on how you can cultivate a deeper, more, trustworthy type interaction or experience with the person. So that’s, part of it. But while you’re doing that, you’re looking for what they value, and I wouldn’t get lost in the term of sacred value.

Sacred value is like the values that will… that you will never compromise, the values that will ensure that you can act illogically just to preserve those values. So it’s like the most important values, let’s just say. [00:42:00] But you’re not just looking for the most important values, you’re looking for their values in general.

And so the more time you spend with them, the more likely they’ll be to open up. The more you ask open questions, the more information they’ll give you, and the more likely they are to share with you what’s going on. However, you need to be looking for it, and this is the mistake, is that it’s not just about spending time with them or building a great relationship with them or whatever, and then eventually having the conversation.

Whenever you’re there, you wanna be, “I wanna know more about Mike. I wanna learn about what he cares about, what his pain points are, what his problems are, what, he loses sleep at night over, what he really wants, what priorities he has, what level of urgency he has. What arehis intentions?

His agenda in this conversation? What are the challenges that he, talks about and complains about? What are the things that he celebrates? How does he talk about other people when he introduces them, positively and negatively? What are the things he says suck, and what are the things he says that are great?”

That’s what I need to be hungry for and wanna know more about. It doesn’t mean I ask all those questions in that [00:43:00] order. We have conversations, but my brain is looking for that. I’m not just listening to the content of what you’re talking about in terms of the KPIs or whatever it is. I’m looking to know Mike better.

I wanna read Mike better. I wanna understand Mike better. ‘Cause if I’m a leader, the more I can understand what’s going on inside Mike’s head, the more I can understand what we call his inner propaganda, the more I can become a better belief leader, which means understanding what he already believes, understanding what is already important to him, those values.

And as a result of that, I’m gonna be able to lead him to believe more in himself, more in the team, more in the mission, more in the organization. And as a result of that, he’s gonna be a much better leader himself. So it really is about having the intention to go, “I wanna learn everything I can about how Mike thinks, how Mike feels, what Mike values, so that I can communicate much more impactfully as well as influentially with him and help him and empower him because I understand him so well.”

And it’s like, if I’m trying to help Mike, I wanna be able to [00:44:00] understand, who does he want to be? Because part of my job as a leader is help to lead him into the identity of the person that he wants to be and along the way, help him to acquire the information he needs so he can do the best job being the best leader possible.

Does that answer your question?

Mike: It answers my question, 

but how would you respond to the leader that hears all that, and we probably both run across a leader or, a dozen like this, leader that says, “I hear all that, Owen, but I have no time for all that crap. I’ve got work to do. Like, why do I need to get to the inner workings of somebody?

They, they, they should do because they’re, they’re part of this team they wanna get paid. I don’t have time for all that. I’ve got real work to get done.” H- how do you respond to that leader?

Owen Fitzpatrick: You don’t. You don’t have to do it. In fact, if you don’t do it, you’ll be able to execute on all the tasks. And if the goal that you have is to be able to keep doing exactly what you’ve always done because it’s getting amazing results, [00:45:00] then great, go for it. I would argue it’s the best thing in the world. The reality is, though, that just going into the work that we do and thinking that if I bring logic to the table, that’s going to always win arguments, it isn’t, and it doesn’t.

Being right is not enough. Just because you have all the data doesn’t mean that the, everyone else will turn around and acquiesce and listen and go, “You know what? You were right. I was wrong.” Like, that’s not the way the world works. Being right logically, being the smartest person in the room, being the person who uses logic the best, we love the idea that this is exactly what’ll allow us to be successful, but it just doesn’t work that way.

If you wanna be successful, you need to understand how to influence others, and influence does not start from a place of just having power. Influence starts with being able to understand the other person and recognize what will change their mind. So, why should I bother doing it? Well, you shouldn’t.

If you just wanna execute, then just execute, but you’ll never be a great leader that way, ’cause great leaders aren’t just about execution. That’s a [00:46:00] manager. A manager gets you to do what you’re supposed to do. A great leader is someone who gets the very best out of every person that works with them and inspires them, but doesn’t just inspire them in a fleeting sort of, “Oh, I’m inspired today” way, but it inspires them deeply to believe more in themselves and their capacity to improve.

Being a great leader means influencing others by understanding others so well that you can make it so that they feel fired up and excited in the long term on a regular basis, and they’re performing at their best more of the time. 

Being a great leader means being a belief leader and ensuring that you understand how to not just get compliance from your team, but get buy-in.

Being a great leader means being able to understand your team so well that you can help them to overcome the inner propaganda that they have that is causing them to doubt themselves or feel a lack of self-confidence or low self-esteem or low self-worth, or indeed is sabotaging their decisions because of their ego.

Being a great leader is about helping you make better decisions yourself because you don’t fall into the trap [00:47:00] of assuming that you’re always correct. Being a great leader is about being confidently vulnerable, confident about what you do know and confident about what you don’t know. So you don’t have to be a great leader to survive in the business world, but it helps, and not only does it help, I think as time continues to go on and AI takes over a lot of the ordinary tasks that we have, what’s gonna be more important than ever is the relationships you’ve built with others, right?

That’s something that AI can’t replicate. It can help you as a tool to do it, but it can’t replicate it. And so until AI becomes our overlords and we start working for them, your ability to be able to get on better with humans is a critical skill that only becomes more important every single year, and that’s what inner propaganda’s about.

You’ll understand yourself more, you’ll help them understand themselves more, and you understand what makes people tick, and as a result of that, you get to be better at building better relationships, building more trust, building greater leadership teams, breakthrough leadership teams even, and hopefully by doing so, [00:48:00] you can continue to add massive amounts of value to the bottom line.

Because, someone once told me the real key to effective business growth is people growth, not necessarily profit growth, or something along those lines. 

Mike: That’s freaking brilliant. You should’ve quit while you were ahead. You, did that, and then you bring in a quote from me, and you, ruined the whole thing. 

Owen Fitzpatrick: I ruined the credibility. Yeah, no, I forget that

Mike: Go back and, and like rewind and listen to everything Owen just said over the last three minutes, let alone over the last 45 minutes or so.

I can’t imagine anything more important. When I work with my clients, we talk about vision, we talk about strategy, we talk about holding people accountable, we talk about priorities, we talk about coaching and developing people, all that stuff. None of that happens, none of that matters unless we know how to lead people and communicate with people and influence people.

And we can’t do that unless we know more about what’s going on in our own heads, you know, [00:49:00] and relate that to others. 

So Owen, all that being said, where could people get your book? I wanna ask you that, and then I, want you to share also what else you do in, addition to writing, where if people want more of this value, how they can get it.

But first, most importantly, where do people go to get your book?

Owen Fitzpatrick: So the book is out this week. It, was released yesterday, August 4th, and you can get it on Amazon, you can get it at barnesandnoble.com, you can get it at most independent bookstores. Any good bookstore should have it in stock, and if it doesn’t, maybe ask the bookstore to order 

Mike: And by the way, call me. I might have a box of them in my office, too if you want. 

Owen Fitzpatrick: There you go. There you go. Call me. So you can get at all those. Do go to innerpropaganda.com, though. On innerpropaganda.com, if you put in your receipt details once you’ve bought it, you’ll be able to get a free masterclass, a 90-minute masterclass I did, and as well as a free workbook as well, that are all designed just to help you to implement some of the ideas to [00:50:00] allow you to, as I call it, the subtitle of the book, Leading Hearts and Minds Through Turbulent Times.

So innerpropaganda.com is the place there. I also have a website, owenfitzpatrick.com, and there you can sign up for my newsletter, Inner Propaganda, details about my podcast, Inner Propaganda, and you can find out about my work as a keynote speaker. And then I’m also on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook as well, and most of the social platforms as well.

So that is pretty much it, but innerpropaganda.com will be a great place to go just to ensure you get your free masterclass and, workbook, as well as a behind-the-scenes interview that’ll be coming soon as well.

Mike: Buy the book. 

Owen, I always say if you want a great company, you need a great leadership team. Thanks so much for helping us get there today. Pleasure as always. Love talking to you, even when we’re not recording. It’s fun, but this time we recorded it

Owen Fitzpatrick: Thanks. Absolutely. Me too. Thanks a million, mate, and lovely to be on the show again. And, thanks very much to all your listeners. 

Mike: Help him get on the New York Times bestseller list.

Owen Fitzpatrick: 

There you go.

Mike: He’s gonna get [00:51:00] there 

Owen Fitzpatrick: Thanks all.

Mike: Thanks Owen.

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